Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

What are you accusing me of? Being old and experienced in Feminist advocacy? Guilty as charged. Way off topic though.

"How incredibly patronising."

You're welcome.

Suddenly all your posts make sense. At least you're admitting to it!

How incredibly patronising.
You're welcome.

On the Feminist board we try to apply Feminist analysis.

Yep, I think all of us are aware of that.

This is difficult when people waste our time with these personal attacks claiming we are intolerant of women.

The only people who have been launching personal attacks on this thread are those who are calling women 'handmaidens' and 'misogynists' for disagreeing with them.

If you cannot separate the analysis of the effects of social customs and mores from criticism of women who comply with social customs and mores you are well and truly conditioned.

How incredibly patronising.

The only fashion at work here is renaming normal clothing that women always choose and wear and have easy access to, as "modest" which drags women who would have nothing to do with it otherwise, into the values of woman-hating patriarchal religion

That is a very succinct summing up of what is happening.

But it seems you and others still object to women dressing in the style itself

Women in Iran deserve nice clothes too. Stopping all modest fashion production and sales gives them less choice, not more

Why is Plan continuing with this outrageous straw man argument ? Nobody has objected to the clothes themselves or suggested they should not be made. Nobody has said this. She has been called out on time and again yet Plan goes on and on with this fantastic straw man.

erm no I love wearing my hijab as did many at my top 2 uni. Isn't it funny how many think a piece of cloth on your head wipes away your brain cells

I’m not sure why your uni is relevant here and nobody is saying you don’t have brain cells. The question is around value judgments placed on those who choose to wear modest or (presumably the opposite is immodest) clothing. By choosing to wear a hijab to cover your hair you are buying into the idea that to show your hair in public is somehow wrong/immodest/unacceptable and similarly those who choose to wear loose clothing, long sleeves, high necks etc BECAUSE THEY ARE ‘MODEST‘ rather than to keep warm, comfortable, they just like them etc are not doing so in a social vacuum.

If you are at home and away from the male gaze do you still wear your hijab?

If you are in a room full of only women and your scarf slips do you panic and rearrange it quickly before anyone sees anything they ‘shouldn’t’?

Would you behave differently in front of a man or in a public space?

The girls I know who wear a head scarf take it off around their friends (and said friends are always very complimentary about the gorgeous hair that is usually hidden!). That it is acceptable for female friends to see their hair, but not boys and men or anyone in public, surely makes that a decision borne out of a sense of modesty, not a fashion choice? I’m not saying that anyone should be forced not to wear it, or that they are wrong for doing so. But it’s clear that a value judgment has been made about those who wear it and those who don’t.

Plan PS , you didn't answer my question. Dressing modestly is advised in Islam to protect a woman from sexual attention. But you have also said that the way a woman dresses is irrelevant, any woman can be raped no matter what she wears. Why then, should Muslim women be made to wear modest clothing, if modest clothing doesn't protect them?

someone might look for a modest dress to wear to a wedding but you would not expect anything suitable for a wedding to come up in a search for "sensible clothing for women"
what word(s) would you actually use to describe clothing that is fashionable but covers most of your body and is not skin tight and doesn't have a different set of negative things associated with it?

I would search for “maxi dress long sleeve” or “high necked blouse” etc rather than apply a value judgment to the type of person who buys the clothes.

Similarly if I wanted something skimpy for the beach I wouldn’t search for “immodest clothing” or “slaggy dress” I’d search for “beach shorts” or “crop top” etc

I think because the subject is the words used to control how we think about that global misery maker.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Even if it were purely Islamic, how does it not help Muslim women to have greater variety and choice in what they wear?
It helps them to have greater choice in what to wear, so long as what they choose is within the confines of oppressive, sexist ideas about 'modesty' that don't apply to men. If it makes their lives easier though, I am in favour of that. But the concept of modest fashion isn't just about style, there's a sexist value system underlying it which implies women are responsible for male sexual violence. As such, it's not something I feel should be embraced with open arms in the name of inclusivity, there are surely better ways to do that.

I was wondering why we were all not bringing up the global misery maker that is the fashion industry.

Fashion - another anti-feminist, anti-woman institution

Plan, let me spell this out for you. Women are being tortured and jailed by men in Iran because they refuse to wear the hijab and they protest about it.

Do you think their problem is:

a) lack of nice fasbionable clothing choices that fit in with what the men in charge want?

b) being tortured and jailed by men because Iranian men think they have the right to tell Iranian women what to wear and punish them for it if they don't?

All patriarchal religions oppress women. I thought you claimed to be a feminist. How come you don't know that?

Not all religions oppress women.
Name one that does not.

I assure you I am still very fashionable and feminist as it is my choice what I wear
Unless you make your clothing yourself it isn't your choice what you wear.

That exhibition I linked to was in 2018. Very current, because rape myths like "women's clothing causes men to rape them" is still believed by countless people.

No, that is not the only origin of the style of clothing. It crosses many borders, eras and religions.
Some of it I said catholic and orthodox Jewish. Some of it is Hindu and Taoist and bhuddist. Not all religions oppress women.
Even if it were purely Islamic, how does it not help Muslim women to have greater variety and choice in what they wear? Surely a fashion style which is a fusion that reconciles their religion with western styles is a step forward? And creates a society more inclusive for their religion and culture? I see it as a stepping stone to eventual assimilation.

Why do you call them "modest" LemonPrism? Why not just "clothes I like" or "clothes I feel comfortable in".?

It usually means fashion for Muslim women. I like modest fashion, I don't like having my body out much as I have issues, I assure you I am still very fashionable and feminist as it is my choice what I wear

I've got a "modest" jumper on and "immodest" jeans according to these misogynistic standards.

What a stupid way to talk about women's clothes. They're comfortable and they fit and they're warm. Those should be the only things that matter.

"That exhibit was years ago and helped kill the myth.

Your link doesn’t undermine that one bit anymore than me posting a picture of a dodo with an old headline “last Dodo on display at British museum” undermines their extinction."

So why did you bring up an exhibit from that exhibition as an (incorrect) example to support your argument. You brought it into the conversation, not me.

Of course the rape myth that women's clothes are responsible for men raping them still exists. The fact that the idea of "modest" clothing even exits gives lie to that claim.

You missed “debunk rape myth”
That exhibit was years ago and helped kill the myth.
It was my understanding that dressing modestly is advised (and enforced in some places, either in law or culturally) in Islam to protect a woman from sexual attention. Are you saying that this is not the case?

Where do you think this so-called fashion trend is coming from? Calling some clothing for women "modest" arises out of worldwide fundamentalist religions, all of which sanction male control of women. You can't talk about the veil, which is one of the most obvious forms of "modest' dress that is demanded of women without talking about places like Iran and what men do to women in those places when they refuse to submit. We can also talk about US fundie religions and how women suffer within them. Also big proponents of "modest" dress for women (not men note).

The only fashion at work here is renaming normal clothing that women always choose and wear and have easy access to, as "modest" which drags women who would have nothing to do with it otherwise, into the values of woman-hating patriarchal religion.

But yes, your wish for Iranian women to have nice fashionable clothing choices whilst men oppress them is noted.

I’m pretty sure the myth is still going strong. I still hear it when school age girls are raped locally.