Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

Nah, I just don't like bullies.
You are the only ones bullying here, offering no discussion on the topics and simply popping up now and again to police our discussion, call us racists, and whatever other s* you think you can fling at us in order to try and shame us into silence.

I do wonder why some posters are fighting so hard for “modest” not to mean what it patently obviously does. What’s behind it?

Me too. I really can't work out the agenda is of certain posters. No one has said long dresses/skirts etc , etc should not be worn but that doesn't seem to be enough. We have to accept the description "modest clothing"

Oliversmumsarmy
Why then, should Western women be made to wear revealing clothing, if they do not wish to do so? Why is it that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women

I don’t think I have ever been forced to wear revealing clothes

Same here Oliversmumsarmy The statement that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women is just so untrue.

If you can't elaborate on this then you're really just flinging around at those nasty, nasty women with opinions.

I don't have to elaborate on anything. If you'd bothered to read the thread properly you'd see what I was referring to, I'm not going to repeat myself because some stranger on a forum demands I do.

Who appointed you judge and jury of this thread?

CeridwenTheWitch
How incredibly manipulative and misleading of you, what I actually wrote was
Feel free to present the case for modest clothing to be a feminist decision, I would actually be really interested to hear a different perspective.
An invitation out of willingness to hear another view which you have equated to a judge in a courtroom.
They also deliberately misinterpret what people say and then attack them for it.
Hypocrite, much?
You seem to be trying to shame us into a specific style of discussion that you deem suitably feminine, that they should all nod along politely and hold hands, no matter what is said and just shrug and say 'never mind', completely avoiding delving into any contentious issues. How insulting to women.

You seem to have a problem with women 'overthinking' as much as Trewser, because heaven forbid women actually think about the sources of their own oppression and don't just roll over to anyone who cries 'intersectional' no matter the cost to women.

Nah, I just don't like bullies.

Because it is a power thing.

Very much so.

We know it isn't about the clothes themselves as we can clearly see that the clothes are no different to clothes that have been worn in the west for decades.

The label can only exist to extert power and say 'if you aren't wearing these specific unrevealing clothes' then you are immodest. Joggy bottoms and hoodies won't cut it, they are the 'wrong' sort of not revealing clothes.

I do think there is also an element of classism at play here as well.

CeridwenTheWitch
You seem to have a problem with women 'overthinking' as much as Trewser, because heaven forbid women actually think about the sources of their own oppression and don't just roll over to anyone who cries 'intersectional' no matter the cost to women.
They also deliberately misinterpret what people say and then attack them for it.
If you can't elaborate on this then you're really just flinging s* around at those nasty, nasty women with opinions.

Sorry damn phone glitching

Making someone invisible and making them believe it is their choice is the ultimate power trip.

Feel free to present the case

Anything else you require your honour?

Are we in a courtroom?! It sure feels like it on this thread!

Oh , and sorry about blowing my own trumpet here, but that clearly makes me both modest and feminist and a long time happy customer/contributor to this board

Trewser- I agree. Lots of intolerance here and rampant policing of feminism. Makes for an exclusionary and biased environment to be honest. Can’t be feminist and modest apparently. That’s like matter and antimatter colliding.

Agreed. They also deliberately misinterpret what people say and then attack them for it.

Look how they demand that people reply to them, after they bulldozed the thread, shouted down anyone who disagreed with them and then they wonder why people don't want to continue the discussion.

Why then, should Muslim women be made to wear modest clothing, if modest clothing doesn't protect them

Because it is a power thing.

Telling a female how to dress and enforcing that dress code through religion is a power thing.

“Protecting” someone by making them invisible so people don’t see them as women is the ultimate power trip. Goes along with the always having to have a Male with you so no one has to even talk to you.

Making someone invisible.

It is the action of labelling some clothes as modest that is making a value judgement

. Dh thinks I dress modestly because I don't show my bra or pants,( he didn't even say I should cover the bingo wings ) , and i amn't wearing sparkles and spangles

So most people might think that most western clothing is already modest...therefore this seems to be adding a new , more restrictive , meaning to the phrase.

Makes for an exclusionary and biased environment to be honest. Can’t be feminist and modest apparently. That’s like matter and antimatter colliding.
You're being included in the discussion, very much so. You don't get everyone to just roll over and agree with you if you don't answer questions and keep making the same straw man arguments and points that have been debunked over and over again, the same would happen if we were discussing any other issue. Nor to you get others to roll over and agree with you by stamping your foot and calling us all a bunch of meanies or echoing the insults of others on the thread. You get people to agree with you by making a valid point. I have in fact agreed with you on a number of points already, in case you hadn't noticed. I certainly haven't tried to tell anyone they can or can't be a feminist, but I do disagree on the issue of modest clothing. Religion doesn't get a free pass for sexism as far as I am concerned. Feel free to present the case for modest clothing to be a feminist decision, I would actually be really interested to hear a different perspective.

Can’t be feminist and modest apparently.

Define 'modest' in this context or it isn't possible to respond.

If by 'modest' you mean 'not wearing revealing clothing' then many feminists don't wear revealing clothing.

If by modest you mean 'humble' then many feminists are humble.

If by modest you mean 'does not object to a label that places a value judgement on perfectly ordinary clothes and sets women who don't wear other perfectly ordinary clothes as 'immodest' in opposition to those who do wear the first set of perfectly ordinary clothes' then no, that is not a feminist position. How can it be?

Why then, should Western women be made to wear revealing clothing, if they do not wish to do so? Why is it that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women

I don’t think I have ever been forced to wear revealing clothes.

And I am interested to know what (clothing or anything) has ever been marketed to women over 40 apart from an insurance policy to make sure your family doesn’t suffer when you are gone and a certain German shampoo.

Women over 40 are invisible to the marketing departments and as you get older you just disappear from view.

It’s gone from “made to wear” to “should wear” every exchange is similar with you moving and shifting the questions meaning.
I flipped the argument, so your answers are my answers.
Go in peace and trouble me no more please.
So still evading the question then. 'Should wear' or 'made to wear', I'd be interested in your answer in any case, you choose. No need for the histrionics, you're on a forum, people generally ask and answer questions, that's what it's for. Here's the original question again:
Dressing modestly is advised in Islam to protect a woman from sexual attention. But you have also said that the way a woman dresses is irrelevant, any woman can be raped no matter what she wears. Why then, should Muslim women be made to wear modest clothing, if modest clothing doesn't protect them?

Trewser- I agree. Lots of intolerance here and rampant policing of feminism. Makes for an exclusionary and biased environment to be honest. Can’t be feminist and modest apparently. That’s like matter and antimatter colliding.

Florabritannica
I said essentially not all young women are compelled but that some are compelled to wear no clothing, revealing clothing or modest clothing by men. This is because many posters seem to have it stuck in their head that most women wearing modest clothes are doing so out of compulsion. Which is not true for western society.
Please reread my post as you have mis-stated what I said.

It is possible to find modest Male fashion being talked about, eg

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-47859204/the-rise-of-male-modest-islamic-fashion

If you google, you have to include the word Male ( the default for modest fashion is modest female fashion) and then all links have a link to Islam

And people say FWR doesn't do intersectionality

Although it is quite common to see Islamic family with the men in sleeveless t shirt and shorts and the women in full head to toe

So there is a religious aspect, and a sexist aspect and a sexist religious aspect ( when different standards are applied to male and female)

“ The biggest market is for Muslims, which has why this has been referred to the most.”
I wonder if it is in the States. Lots of fundamentalist Christians there.

I do wonder why some posters are fighting so hard for “modest” not to mean what it patently obviously does. What’s behind it?

Upfield, speaking with you is exhausting. You constantly change your questions. It’s gone from “made to wear” to “should wear” every exchange is similar with you moving and shifting the questions meaning.
I flipped the argument, so your answers are my answers.
Go in peace and trouble me no more please.

I'd also like to know why you think this is about race, since 'modest' dress is not born from race but religion? Islam, Judaism and Christianity have all been referred to in association with modest fashion, with members of all races in all of those religions. The biggest market is for Muslims, which has why this has been referred to the most.

It's a feminist forum, what do you expect us to do, quietly go along with sexist ideology out of female socialisation?

If you're accusing me of racism I take that seriously and I'd like you to back that up. You don't get to censor women talking about women's rights by throwing that one about. You complain about women calling each other 'handmaidens' (which I actually haven't done anywhere) and then throw a deeply offensive insult at me to try to shut me up. It's interesting you think this is an appropriate tactic to silence women that disagree with you, rather than presenting any kind of counter-argument and engaging.

Why is it that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women?

Well flipping the argument, as you refer to it Plan, doesn't work here because that statement simply isn't true.