Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

“ Dressing revealingly for young women is advised and celebrated in Western society as a feminist statement of sexual empowerment.”

No it isn’t. Dressing the way you want to and not adapting your style because of the way men might react is a feminist statement. If you want to go out dressed “revealingly” you should be able to without thinking “I’d better not- it might put me at risk from men” it’s not encouraged or discouraged. It’s just an option. A choice a woman should be able to make without considering the effect it might have on men’s behaviour.

Also too and besides the Evangelical Christian extremists of the US have a very specific style of clothing they call modest that some shops and manufacturers cater to.

Dressing revealingly for young women is advised and celebrated in Western society as a feminist statement of sexual empowerment.

Clearly part of the problem is people confusing the corporate backlash against Feminism with Feminism itself.

Parents in the US bemoaned for years their inability to find school clothing for preteen daughters that do not have see through fabrics and/or bare midriffs. California mall rat style cheaply produced in sweat shops in the Northern Marianas was all that was on offer at affordable shops for years. The only concession to winter was the coats.

Women did work in corsets, but dying from their dresses catching fire was the second commonest cause of death for women up to 1800 (according to QI anyway):

"Modesty for women then meant full-length crinolines which sometimes caught fire and burned the wearer to death, and corsets which interfered with women's breathing and ability to move. Some women are just so clueless about female history."

Utter bullshit. As ever on Mumsnet, you're looking through an upper class Victorian lens and even then that's wrong.

So you really think no one worked or bent down just because they wore a corset? Crinoline were a very small part of 19th century fashion.

Corsets, stays, bodies and kirtles have been worn for hundred of years and they are more comfortable to wear than a bra. They only went out of fashion because elastic was invented.

Tightlacing was never really a thing. Only a few upper class women did it and even then they were taken to task for it. Only fetishists today are into tightlacing.

I don't personally feel the fashion industry activelychoosesto sexualise women's bodies, more that they just don't care what the consequences of their labels are for women

High end/ couture fashion is often far more about the structure and design of the garment- which is often approached from an almost architectural view point than sexualising women's bodies. Designers such as Issey Miyake or Dries van Noten for example make extraordinarily complex garments which, for them to work, require lots of fabric. Vivienne Westwood is the same to some extent (a sales assistant and I spent a good 15 minutes trying to get the twisting and draping on a not at all revealing Westwood dress back in the correct place)

You sound as cynical as me!

Midgebabe I honestly don't know enough about the industry to say which factors are most impacting their bottom line.

I do think a lot of organisations and industries like to signal their progressiveness via changes that cost them nothing and don't really address any underlying issues though. I doubt the fashion industry is immune to this sort of behaviour.

ShonaAndTheWaterHorse I also have no idea what Trews and Ceridwen's points are, as far as I recall they haven't interacted with me other than when they have popped up to shout at me and tell me I'm a racist, narcissist, bullying, intolerant dictator who 'overthinks' things, and has zero sense of humour.

Arnoldwhats I hadn't thought about that. Is greater awareness actually hitting the fashion industries bottom line? I would have thought they would be more concerned with the growing second hand approach to fashion.

Midgebabe

I suspect there is also an element of 'easy win' going on. It is a way for the industry to signal their inclusive credentials without all the awkward bits like paying the women in the developing world who make the clothes a decent wage.

I guess the modest tag ties in with the religious aspect that the marketers are trying to reach. The link to religion is much more obvious if you search for modest Male fashion.

They probably didn't consider it could have wider implications. Wonder if it's therefore something that should be referred to the advertising standards people? Unintentional harm, but nevertheless implying that everyday clothing is immodest.

It is most definitely a marketing ploy and I am interested to see Goosefoot's response to my views on the fashion industry generally, though I appreciate she is in North America so a response may take a while.

I don't personally feel the fashion industry actively chooses to sexualise women's bodies, more that they just don't care what the consequences of their labels are for women. In this case I see the push coming from religion and the industry just seeing an opportunity rather than it being driven by the fashion industry if that makes sense?

CeridwenTheWitch I'm neither a bully nor a victim, just a woman with an opinion, it's allowed.

ShonaAndTheWaterHorse I think Plan's point with that comment was to say that Western clothing forces women to wear 'immodest' clothing, and this is not feminist, presenting this as a 'gotcha' because she thinks that the position of women arguing here is that it is a feminist act to wear revealing clothing.

Midgebabe your point about "modest clothing" being a marketing ploy is worth discussing.

What bothers me, and other posters, is why is it that normal, everyday, run of the mill clothing is getting the tag "modest" attached to it?

More bullying and trying to shame me into silence.

I cannot believe that you would now dare to play the victim, after bullying, attacking and bossing around multiple posters in this thread for so much as daring to have an opinion.

It has really been a revealing thread.

You are the only ones bullying here, offering no discussion on the topics and simply popping up now and again

I'm sure I'll be told I'm an insane troll with reading difficulties as Trews and Ceridwen have previously said this but I can't work out what point either of them is trying to make.

Plan's point seems to be (the demonstrably and patently untrue) position that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women. And that women should be grateful we can now buy "modest" clothing.

Nice DARVO.
More bullying and trying to shame me into silence.

Perhaps one of the squabbling sides could avoid rising to any bait/trying to get last word in and the allow the discussion to go back to the question as to how much modest fashion ( as opposed to just normal every day modest , ie not look at me attention grabbing, clothing ) is a marketing ploy, a reflection of the intersectionality of women and religion, a tool used to hurt and disenfranchise women

Why do you find it so hard to accept that not everyone agrees with you on this? You seem determined to bulldoze the thread so that no varying views are allowed, that we must all condemn this fashion style and be silenced if we so much raise an eyebrow.
I'm finding it hard to understand your mentality. You seem to equate me having an opinion to me dictating what other people's opinions should be. If I disagree, I disagree, and as this is a discussion forum, I'm discussing why. For the record, although I find it ridiculous that I even have to say this, I think anyone should be entitled to their own opinion. Do I think that the term 'modest' is a positive one for women's clothing in 2019? No, although I would consider of a alternative point of view if someone offered up a convincing argument, but as far as I am concerned no one has. Why do you think I should be the one to back down? Sorry, but you're not making any sense.

The statement that before the modest clothing trend, less revealing clothes were only designed for and marketed to over 40yr old women is just so untrue.

Quite aside from the fact you would have to ignore various fashion trends over the years to make this arguement, you would also have to ignore the fact that many western women live in climates that make wearing revealing clothing actively dangerous.

Do western women in Quebec wear revealing clothing when it's 20 below? Norwegian women when negotiating knee deep snow?

It is quite obvious that clothing that covers you up has to be available in the west. That more revealing clothing is also available for those who wish it and occasions where it is appropriate does not restrict the availability of less revealing.

We know it isn't about the clothes themselves as we can clearly see that the clothes are no different to clothes that have been worn in the west for decades

Exactly- that is what made the original article a vacuous puff piece and and at the same time quite sinister. If you were shown the photos which accompanied it with no text or explanation and asked to comment you would say " quite nice**, but what am I being asked to comment on? There's nothing special here"

**Excepting Oliversmumsarmy who didn't like them.

You are the only ones bullying here, offering no discussion on the topics and simply popping up now and again to police our discussion, call us racists, and whatever other you think you can fling at us in order to try and shame us into silence.

Nice DARVO.

You seem to be trying to shame us into a specific style of discussion that you deem suitably feminine

Who said anything about a discussion needing to be 'feminine?' I have no idea what a 'feminine' discussion would look like.

I do however know what a respectful discussion would look like, and it's not what has happened on this thread. Why do you assume I hold different standards for men as for women? If men were acting like you and a few other posters on this thread I'd feel exactly the same way. It is you who is making sexist assumptions here.

Why do you find it so hard to accept that not everyone agrees with you on this? You seem determined to bulldoze the thread so that no varying views are allowed, that we must all condemn this fashion style and be silenced if we so much raise an eyebrow.