Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

It’s not a particularly new concept. Modest clothing has been a thing in the States for years- with associated articles and blogs- among fundamentalist Christians. And the emphasis there was very much on a woman’s responsibility to avoid leading men into the occasion of sin.

it's a new concept and that is why they have come up with the name 'Modest Fashion' - it is about dressing modestly for religious dressing

But what is there for those that don’t follow a religion that says you have to cover every inch of flesh.

ShonaAndTheWaterHorse whilst long sleeved clothing might have always existed now it is the only thing that exists.

Even in my local Primark they seem to have done away with the plain short sleeved t shirts.

You can only get long sleeved ones now.
Don’t know if this is a national thing or just our local store.

'Modest' clothing gives women the false sense of security that men will respect them if they play along with their sexist rules, which are put in place to control and restrict women. It is based on a lie. A good man will respect a woman no matter what she wears, an abusive man will abuse anyway and then blame the woman for the abuse he inflicts, no matter what she is wearing - I mean, it's not like abusive men don't lie about what happened when they assault someone, and a man's word is trusted over that of a woman (especially when women play along with the sexist ideal of 'modesty' so it isn't challenged, abusive men just gain in power). When you accept the label 'modest' you are reinforcing the sexist ideals underlying it. Plus, I don't think anyone's mentioned the elephant in the room yet - the more you cover something up and make it taboo, the more appeal it has. Has nobody noticed the phenomenon of gang rapes in countries like India and Egypt? Women are afraid to even get on a bus by themselves.

You can’t wake someone who’s pretending to be asleep.

I agree with you Shona.
It is frustrating to be dismissed when discussing, or trying to discuss, Feminism 101 issues on FWR.

I am angry that women who presumably claim to be feminists support the use of this term. The so called "modest" clothes in the article linked are simply normal, every day clothes albeit some of them had a headscarf added.

The difference between the tag 'SUV' and 'modest' is that the latter is tied up with thousands of years of oppressive social codes for female behaviour, thousands of years where women have been responsible for males raping them and attacking them and knowing they would get away with it because they can claim that the woman wasn't dressed modestly enough. Stop being so disingenuous

I agree with Upfield - particularly about the level of disingenuous comments.

None of this clothing is new- fgs hippy shops have been selling long sleeved, long dresses and skirts and fusing Eastern and western styles. What is new is marketing clothes as modest.

It is extremely disappointing to see the level of disingenuous handmaidenry going on here.

Shona, you're coming across as very angry and like you're not listening to people. This is a new style of clothing, designed by Muslim designers for Muslim, Orthodox Jewish and also western women who want to try the style to cater to a gap in the market. It is not the same as the clothing that has always been around, that is why it's a new concept and that is why they have come up with the name 'Modest Fashion' - it is about dressing modestly for religious dressing.

There is a designer called Hana Tajima, if you look her up in google you can see that it is not the same type of clothing sold by Laura Ashley etc, it is a fusion of eastern and western style clothing.

This was my thought when I was faced with rack after rack of long sleeved buttoned up dresses and blouses and skirts so long I felt like I could sweep the streets

But that has always existed for those who want them- me actually but I'll be damned if I'm going to describe them as "modest"

I have never worn a long sleeved item of clothing in my adult life

Again there is nothing new about this. Absolutely nothing. Someone has already asked the question where is the pushing of the term "modest" coming from? And why?

Laura Ashley and Kath Kidston and the far more upmarket Samantha Sung have been selling this style of clothing for decades without marketing it as "modest"

PlanDeRaccordement

Fashion for women is more diverse and inclusive with modest fashion as an accepted style among many styles. I would not like a world in which the only approved or accepted clothing for women were of one set ideal of femininity. To have the variety means that women who like showing more or less skin can all have options of fashionable clothes to choose from and still feel feminine

You have so missed the point I'm not sure where to begin. Do you really think that posters who object to the word "modest" would want to tell any woman how to dress? Far less to prescribe "one ideal of femininty"?

"Modest" is a loaded, judgemental term. It serves no purpose except for those who do want to police what women wear.

The reason it's such a buzzword now is that they are taking the enormous Muslim/ orthodox Jewish market

This was my thought when I was faced with rack after rack of long sleeved buttoned up dresses and blouses and skirts so long I felt like I could sweep the streets.

I have never worn a long sleeved item of clothing in my adult life.

Hated wearing school shirts and cardigans

I am of an age where I know no one thinks I am worth marketing to (apart from trying to infer I might die soon) but now really feel like I don’t belong in shops anymore.

I hate shopping at the best of times but now my excuse is as well as being old I am probably not modest enough.

Endofthedays Not in terms of fashion marketing. When I think of styles such as 'boho' 'french girl style' etc, it's not marketed as protecting you from the male gaze and thus putting responsibility for your own potential rape onto you and what you are wearing (if we dig under the surface, this is really what 'modest' is about). Other styles tend to be sold in a more aspirational way, 'if you look like this, you will have this lifestyle'. Yes, of course you have to be thin and beautiful too etc and the whole fashion industry is of course very sexist, but this 'modest' term itself and what it represents is based in female oppression via religion.

Hasn’t sexism always been upfront for all to see?!

Sorry for the typos! It's late

So we really need to critique the whole big thing of patriarchal religions and their morality systems, rather than what I sense is the world view on this thread - that most of society are now postmodern relativists and so a few people are suddenly saying modest like some kind of weird aberration. They really are not. Religion and absolute moral belief systems still exist. I agree with all of that, apart from I don't see that people on this thread are saying 'modest' is a weird aberration, but rather the sexism is now upfront for all too see and we're supposed to embrace it as a fashion option cos 'diversity', whereas it's usually more (hypocritically) underlying.

Modest clothing had always been everywhere. I'm this weather I'd say I would be clad as extreme modest dresser. I am literally wrapped up from head to toe, it's freezing in our office. The reason it's such a buzzword now is that they are taking the enormous Muslim/ orthodox Jewish market. It's all about the marketing and money and less about the value judgement.

Upfield, absolutely feminists should critique it.

But it becomes a bit absurd if we talk around the issue by saying it’s not true that women lead men on, were asking for it, aren’t protected by a longer skirt etc, these are just myths, why would people think that?

We know perfectly well that people think all of those things because Abrahamic religions have very specific teachings on modesty and the belief that an immodest women is not only herself sinful but also leading men to sin by gazing on her with lust or raping her. And we have lived in an Abrahamic culture for over a thousand years.

And very many people still belong to Abrahamic religions and still believe these things about immodest women and behaving as if nobody really believes in modesty anymore isn’t going to make the problem go away.

So we really need to critique the whole big thing of patriarchal religions and their morality systems, rather than what I sense is the world view on this thread - that most of society are now postmodern relativists and so a few people are suddenly saying modest like some kind of weird aberration. They really are not. Religion and absolute moral belief systems still exist.

Apologies for not having read the full thread - but Margaret Attwood’s The Testaments is extremely cogent about the misogyny inherent in insisting that women dress ‘modestly’ in order to avoid inflaming male desire.
I do think, though, that, in the wake of MeToo and the mainstream acceptance of the concept of the male gaze, fashion has become more sympathetic to women who want to dress for comfort, style, practicality, whatever rather than for the eyes of the patriarchy. An obvious example is the way that the ridiculous heels of the Noughties have given way to trainers and boots.
I absolutely agree with previous posters that the term ‘modest’ when applied to women’s clothing is a patriarchal value-judgement, and the reason we are generally shy of calling it out is heavily bound up in neo-liberal cultural relativism.

Some people search for an SUV tagged vehicle because they have dogs, or children, or live on a dirt road or live in a snowy mountainous area, or prefer the extra visibility, or like the extra safety in accidents.
The difference between the tag 'SUV' and 'modest' is that the latter is tied up with thousands of years of oppressive social codes for female behaviour, thousands of years where women have been responsible for males raping them and attacking them and knowing they would get away with it because they can claim that the woman wasn't dressed modestly enough. Stop being so disingenuous.

I just don’t find the term “modest” to be sexist and the critiques overblown. It’s not a great term, but neither are a lot of fashion terms like plus size for example. Anyway here is a picture of Paris fashion week modest fashion winner.

Endofdays
Yes people use the tag “modest” for different reasons like clothes to wear to worship, clothes to meet boyfriends parents, clothes to travel to conservative countries, clothes to protect them from the sun due to a history of skin cancer, clothes that are their personal preference of showing less skin but also feminine and glamorous, clothes that are professional, etc. But why does that matter? People use all search tags for their own personal reasons.
Some people search for an SUV tagged vehicle because they have dogs, or children, or live on a dirt road or live in a snowy mountainous area, or prefer the extra visibility, or like the extra safety in accidents.

PlanDeRaccordement Variety is fine, but why the sexist label 'modest'? It's all very well to embrace 'diversity', but diversity of what - sexism? No thanks!
Endofthedays - Because many religions consider modesty to be a moral good. Many religions are inherently sexist and seek to control women through restrictive social codes that don't apply to men. Having said that, if women want to wear 'modest' clothing and embrace the label and all the sexist ideology underlying they are welcome to do so. That doesn't mean feminists should not critique it.

Comfy clothes that some women like? Let's attach a value judgment to them because that's what journalism is for, eh?

‘If 'modest' clothing doesn't protect women, why wear it in the first place?‘

Because many religions consider modesty to be a moral good.

Fashion for women is more diverse and inclusive with modest fashion as an accepted style among many styles. I would not like a world in which the only approved or accepted clothing for women were of one set ideal of femininity. To have the variety means that women who like showing more or less skin can all have options of fashionable clothes to choose from and still feel feminine.