Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

Here is an article on how modest fashion has filled a gap in the market.
forward.com/life/427544/a-muslim-and-an-orthodox-jew-talk-modesty-and-feminism/

if it did there would be some similar form of satirical or ironic wearing of 'modest' garments involved

Why must there be satire or irony to qualify as feminist? An objective of conveying satire or irony is still dressing for the male gaze.
Point out to me the satire and irony in any clubbing outfit please.

Trewser
Yes they existed but they weren't in fashion

I literally have no idea what your point is. What does "in fashion" mean?

Yes they existed but they weren't in fashion.

BertrandRussell
Please can you support the statement that Muslim women could not find suitable clothes to wear to work before “modest fashion”?

Clothes which are now being described as "modest" have always existed. Professions such as law, accountancy or banking until quite recently have always required a formal dress code which, if you were of a mind to, could be described as "modest"

“ The embrace of the term 'modest' by non-religious women is born from virtue-signalling how cool they are with Islam, and cultural relativism, which is bad for women, as it prohibits criticism of the sexist elements of different cultures.”

Actually, I think it’s more fundamental (no pun intended) and dangerous than that. I think it’s highlighting the fact that a significant number of women do think that women are responsible for male behaviour, and have a responsibility to police their own actions so as not to inflame their uncontrollable sexual needs. It is only in very recent times that that has ceased to be the general view. Like many other feminist advances, big and small, it is a very fragile victory, and can be lost in the blink of an eye.

One of my posts has been deleted.
I can't remember what I said. I'm sure it wasn't offensive to anyone.

I must remember to screenshot.

After all men decide what a whore should wear and look like, not women. It was all about advertising a woman’s body that is for sale. They want T&A on display, they want the crippling stilettos, they want the doll face makeup. And doing all that gives men more visual pleasure than taking the opposite approach and dressing in a glamourous but non whore fashion which states that your body is not for sale and is your own which you dress for your own pleasure not caring about the male gaze.
I don't particularly care enough about 'kinderwhore' fashion to defend it as a feminist statement, but I would say that it doesn't conform to the image of the 'whore' completely, it's more of a satirical statement, taking the ugliness of the 'whore' archetype and throwing it back in men's faces. 'Modest' fashion doesn't even attempt to criticise patriarchal hypocrisy, if it did there would be some similar form of satirical or ironic wearing of 'modest' garments involved. There isn't. It's a movement born from sexist, patriarchal, religious ideas about women, embraced by woke, virtue-signalling dipshits.

I’d be perfectly happy if the term modest were replaced with another, what I am against is eliminating the fashion style in its entirety because it is not a bad thing in and of itself

Why do you keep posting this straw man point about anyone wanting to eliminate this style- nobody has said anything of the kind. At least one poster has said her own way of dressing could happily be described as "modest" except she would as she said give "a big ole f*you" to anyone using the term.

And I'm sorry but the suggestion that until very recently it was impossible to buy clothes such as long sleeved dresses, long skirts, long sleeved tops , loose fitting trousers, loose fitting tunics, high - necked tops is just nonsense.

Please can you support the statement that Muslim women could not find suitable clothes to wear to work before “modest fashion”?

Planderaccordement I'm all for Muslim women having more clothing options. What I'm against is using sexist religious ideals from the dark ages to market clothes to all women, as though adhering to patriarchal ideals somehow makes you a superior, virtuous, unrapeable kind of woman. The embrace of the term 'modest' by non-religious women is born from virtue-signalling how cool they are with Islam, and cultural relativism, which is bad for women, as it prohibits criticism of the sexist elements of different cultures. Of course, there's a lot of willful ignorance on this thread. Combining criticism of religious practices and what women wear hits a raw nerve and some are so heavily invested they refuse to engage with the points being made and simply say 'I disagree, you're telling women what to wear (we're not) etc', dodging any real analysis of what's going on because it will unearth too many uncomfortable truths.

PlanDeRaccordement

In years gone by there has always been a stack of short sleeves and spaghetti strapped t. Shirts throughout winter

It started last year when I went to get the v neck t.shirt and found they only now do the crew neck variety.

I have a panic attack if I wear stuff around my neck and wrists.

Ended up buying the largest size so the neck scooped down

I buy them for work wear and just wearing day to day

Prior to modest fashion being added, there were no clothes for women from Eastern countries, especially Muslim women

But you are in the UK.

I know there has been clothing suitable for Muslim women as a lot of my Muslim friends have never had a problem finding clothes.

If I went to Iraq would I be out of line bitching there are no mini skirts and bikinis on offer

My problem is now all there is in stores is “modest” clothing and now for the first time in a long while I have been invited to something where I need to dress up.

I can’t find a single thing to wear to the point that I will probably end up making my excuses and not going.

In any case, at least dressing as a 'whore' was making an attempt to challenge the patriarchal rules set up by men and throw it back in their faces. The term 'modest' positively embraces patriarchy.

Some would say the opposite. After all men decide what a whore should wear and look like, not women. It was all about advertising a woman’s body that is for sale. They want T&A on display, they want the crippling stilettos, they want the doll face makeup. And doing all that gives men more visual pleasure than taking the opposite approach and dressing in a glamourous but non whore fashion which states that your body is not for sale and is your own which you dress for your own pleasure not caring about the male gaze.

^whilst long sleeved clothing might have always existed now it is the only thing that exists.

Even in my local Primark they seem to have done away with the plain short sleeved t shirts.

You can only get long sleeved ones now.
Don’t know if this is a national thing or just our local store.^

That’s because it is winter, so the shops will have long sleeve winter clothes now. Just wait for spring, then the short sleeves will come back.

Did I say “you can’t wake people who are pretending to be asleep” or did I just think it?

Dear Shona,
The modest fashion trend has in fact increased diversity and inclusiveness in the western countries. Yet you said
You have so missed the point I'm not sure where to begin. and went on a tangent about judgement. As for telling women how to dress that still happens and was worse before modest fashion. I have had jobs where I was required to wear a short skirt, heels and a tight fitting blouse. A woman who wished to dress along the lines of modest fashion would be barred from that job.
Prior to modest fashion being added, there were no clothes for women from Eastern countries, especially Muslim women, that they could wear to school and work without looking completely alien. It is a documented fact that numerous women from these background would not go to school or to professional jobs because they could not find anything to wear that was accepted in the dress code and met their spiritual or personal preferences. It is not just my experience, there are many articles on this fact.
The modest fashion trend has given these women clothing choices that are now accepted in the mainstream western world as appropriate office wear. Fashion is more diverse and inclusive because of it.
As I say, I don’t care about the name modest one way or the other but I do think that the trend itself has been good for women who were marginalised before it existed because they did not want to wear more revealing clothing.
I’d be perfectly happy if the term modest were replaced with another, what I am against is eliminating the fashion style in its entirety because it is not a bad thing in and of itself.

The word modest seems to be a loaded term.

As BertrandRussell said, a lot of “soft” anti feminism going on at the moment

Subtle
Not accidental
Associated with shaming

Aimed at women.
Nice.

Apologies, I am late to this party and haven’t read the whole thread. I think we are in complete agreement. I must have been reading out of context your comment about anti-plastic-surgery etc.
What we are both arguing, it seems, is that as soon as the label ‘modest’ rears its ugly head we are thrust into a world of uncontrolled male urges and women’s responsibility to contain those urges by their clothing choices.

I thought I'd made it clear pages back that I have no problem with the clothes and advocate for women dressing for comfort, but it's the label 'modest' I object to

You did. The misinterpretation of what you have been posting is quite surprising.

“ My suspicion also extends to the posters disingenuously claiming "modest" is merely a useful tag to assist shoppers.”
This is my main concern, actually. There is a lot of “soft” anti feminism going on at the moment.

Thank you HumberHellraiser for articulating much better than I the issue with 'modest' as a term.

Modest all too often means very definitely female stereotyped or feminine clothing (dress, skirt, embellished twiddly bits and feminine decoration) but controlling and covering any body parts that might indicate the female sex.

So eg a woman weRing sloppy sweatshirt, Adidas joggers and a Chicago bears cap would Not be described as modest, because to be modest implies to be inherently and overtly feminine but with any sexuality obviously controlled.

Most western women have been wearing comfortable,, practical clothes that cover their flesh as a matter of routine for decades. Jeans and jumpers, smart trousers and long sleeved blouses, cargo pants and cotton tops.

But these clothes don't 'signal' piety. They don't signal subservience so they aren't good enough.

The clothes in the article are no less revealing of the female form, not more practical, no more covering than ordinary western clothes that have been freely available all along. The tag 'modest' is not about coverage, or comfort, or practicality. It is about saying 'look at me, I'm a virtuous woman' and for one woman to be virtuous another must lack virtue. It is a label which exists only to judge.

Where I disagree with you is in what appears to be your inherent suspicion ofanysuch dressing

I really don't think that is what Upfield means. The suspicion does not relate to the style of clothing but the motives behind describing it as "modest" ; particularly when the clothes shown in the article linked to by the OP are nothing more than ordinary, everyday clothes worn by millions of women.

My suspicion also extends to the posters disingenuously claiming "modest" is merely a useful tag to assist shoppers.

Where I disagree with you is in what appears to be your inherent suspicion of any such dressing. I thought I'd made it clear pages back that I have no problem with the clothes and advocate for women dressing for comfort, but it's the label 'modest' I object to. I dress for comfort probably more than the average UK woman, but anyone calling my outfit 'modest' sets off the urge to put on a bikini top and mini skirt as a big ole f* you. I also mentioned how a lot of these clothes in the article aren't necessarily that comfortable or practical.

Oliversmumsarmy
That may well work for you but generally speaking, women don't move faster in restricted shoes.