Help me understand...”Modest Fashion”

I live in a heavily Islamic area in a major city and when I wear a halter-necked knee-length sundress I am often spat at by men and sometimes even whilst wearing leggings and a short skirt to the extent I now avoid the local shopping area and time going out on a Friday.
I can only assume those who argue that wearing modest clothes is just a fashion choice and choice = feminism either a) have never lived in such an area and experienced this kind of hostility, so are naive as to the harmful effects of 'modesty' on women's freedom or b) actually approve of the idea of 'modest' and believe that women really are responsible for men's abuse, or c) are trying to be 'inclusive' as priority, thus ignoring how to be inclusive of sexist ideals is harmful to women.

Just read through the thread and did a bit of looking online and there does seem to be a definite move towards what is described as modest. I looked on H&M at dresses (I assume H&M are to the younger end of the market) and there are some rather odd-looking brown floral 'rent a tents' that even me knocking on for 50 wouldn't wear - they look like you're wearing a remade 70's duvet cover. I agree with Oliversmummysarmy that a lot would simply not be practical for me as I'm short and even in petit sizes they tend to trail and end up frayed and torn and in any case I hate wearing long skirts as they wrap around my legs and impede movement. I have only 1 pencil skirt and I only wear it when I don't have to walk anywhere.

But what real-world implications does the word modest used in this sense have? Someone mentioned that words have real-life impacts on the perception of realities such as the way groups dress/behave etc. I live in a heavily Islamic area in a major city and when I wear a halter-necked knee-length sundress I am often spat at by men and sometimes even whilst wearing leggings and a short skirt to the extent I now avoid the local shopping area and time going out on a Friday. In the eyes of these men I will never be modest enough as I choose to dress normally and in line with the way I've always done. I've dressed in skimpy stuff in the past (was a goth) but it's always been my choice and I don't agree with some of the overly sexualised outfits I often see today (not that I could wear them anyway!).

Modest is a loaded word with the implication of consequences for women as a PP said it is not kind to women and will if allowed to gain traction in popular perception have implications on women's freedoms and activities.

That’s a bit of a Lib Fem view on things isn’t it. Bit like those who think stripping and sex work is empowering and therefore must be feminist.

Actually I think that's what's known as "making things up". Possibly by a visitor to our planet whose only previous exposure to humans has been Love Island.

Are we really going to have to go through the 'women are responsible for enforcing societies misogynist rules' discussion?

@ShonaAndTheWaterHorse

But I literally do dress to disguise the fact I don’t want to have to wear a proper bra. I literally am hiding my body because I can’t be arsed presenting it in the way society expects 🤷‍♀️

Plan- you said “ Dressing revealingly for young women is advised and celebrated in Western society as a feminist statement of sexual empowerment.”. Could you say some more about this and provide some evidence? Because it certainly isn’t my experience.

That’s a bit of a Lib Fem view on things isn’t it. Bit like those who think stripping and sex work is empowering and therefore must be feminist.

No rad fem worth her salt would advise other women to wear revealing clothes or celebrate them doing so. I get the feeling this board is definitely leaning more towards rad fem, thankfully.

Plan- you said “ Dressing revealingly for young women is advised and celebrated in Western society as a feminist statement of sexual empowerment.”. Could you say some more about this and provide some evidence? Because it certainly isn’t my experience.

Ambivert
It’s pretty much nothing to do with men and everything to do with judgement from other women.

Exactly. One article I posted stated that it is dressing for the female gaze, not the male gaze. Whether that is to be presentable and comfortable or to impress other women, the entire spectrum is still a feminist way to dress.

Would I call it modest?
I guess I’ve always described it as a mix of boho and “mumsy”
I would consider calling it modest because to me that’s just a euphemism for “hidden” or “disguised” which is exactly what my clothes are about

To be honest I'm not sure "modest" being a euphemism for "hidden" or disguised" is much better. Those terms aren't quite as value laden as modest but, for me there's a world of difference between not wanting to wear, say a crop top and skin tight jeans (because frankly they would be uncomfortable and I'd look silly) and choosing a full skirted dress which would flatter me and "disguising" or "hiding" my body.

"Respect others' beliefs" is quite clearly nonsense. It can only mean "respect the right of others to hold beliefs you don't agree with provided their beliefs do not compel you to do or abstain from doing something which is otherwise permitted"

ArnoldWhatshisknickers I totally agree. What does "respect others' beliefs" actually mean in practice? Be forced to accept them as reasonable views, even if they go against everything you stand for and are deeply offensive - sexist, racist, homophobic? Even if they discriminate against you, yourself?

I agree with what @TalkingintheDark said.

I Dress without revealing much skin; lots of heavy cotton, wear men's coats. I think I am extremely cool and couldn't give a fuck about Modesty. It's so bloody offensive. The reason I don't wear a tight low cut top is because I don't like the way it looks on me, not because I feel I should be modest.... fuck that! I want to dress the way I do because I like it. Jeeeeesus!

I think we used to talk about 'not too revealing' when I was young instead of modest. That's better because it's factual.
Also I don't actually like showing my body off, not through any weird sense of modesty, just pure vanity and aesthetic. I'll wear small clothes if it's too hot for big clothes! It's practicality mainly.

Haven’t read the full thread because the first page looked like people are reading this completely different to me...

I am currently a bit heavier than I’d like so my sensory issues with clothing are worse than ever.
I am married and mid thirties so feel the comfort of having an “excuse” for not caring how I look if I felt someone was judging me.

I dress like the women in the article. I do it because it’s comfy and hides my unshaven legs. Wearing these types of clothes lets me get away with wearing a bikini instead of a real bra (which is way more comfortable and still just about holds my massive boobs in a socially acceptable place).

I wear batwing or oversized jumpers and floor length or mid calf skirts. I like bright and contrasting colours.
People have laughed at my weird dress sense before.

Would I call it modest?
I guess I’ve always described it as a mix of boho and “mumsy”
I would consider calling it modest because to me that’s just a euphemism for “hidden” or “disguised” which is exactly what my clothes are about.

It’s pretty much nothing to do with men and everything to do with judgement from other women.

Upfield

Debate around these issues has been rumbling on in the real world for years, though mostly ignored by media and politicians alike.

I had a very long running disagreement with my local authority over the phrase 'respect others beliefs' being used in schools.

For background my children's non-denominational high school and the catholic school across the street were being replaced by a joint campus and the council were very poor at acknowledging the needs of non-religious people throughout the process.

My issue with the phrase was, and remains, the simple fact that I don't respect the beliefs. I am happy to respect others right to hold whatever beliefs they wish but in demanding I respect the beliefs themselves you deny my right to my own beliefs. That is not how a secular society works. It can't work like that.

If people aren't free to express disagreement with beliefs they aren't free at all. You can't create inclusivity by restricting basic freedoms.

I think one of the reasons why this is such a contentious issue is that there is a lack of general consensus in society on what it actually means to be 'inclusive', in the same way there is with Trans issues. From what I've seen all people here agree inclusivity of women from different faiths is a good thing, so far as women should be free to practice their religion, wear whatever clothes they feel is suitable for that and shouldn't be discriminated against for it. I would argue where the disagreement lies is taking inclusivity to mean that we should accept the opposite beliefs to our own as valid, even when those views attack our own rights as women. I find it hard to understand the appeals to consider the opposite view on this thread, meaning we should consider ideals that are everything that feminism stands against, namely the acceptance of the term and concept of modesty and the underlying control of women's bodies by men. I'm open to hearing otherwise, but I haven't. The accusations of 'white feminism' and 'colonialism' are clearly exploiting the notion of 'inclusivity' here, using it to try to push back women's rights (also inaccurate, surely 'colonialism' would involve advocating for laws controlling what women can do in foreign countries and demanding they adhere to Western dress, and not be merely a discussion on how the term 'modest' creeping in to describe clothes WE wear is offensive). Those who wish to keep women in their place have found a weak spot with 'inclusivity' and keep on chipping away at it. For Western women, I definitely think there's virtue signalling going on with the embrace of modest fashion. Whilst it's been pointed out that various religions include modest fashions, the biggest market at least in Western Europe seems to be for Muslims, and it's woke to show you're cool with Muslims. If this fashion was more obviously connected with American fundamentalist Christians, would it have been embraced as much at this point in time? Christians are very 2000s, as in the wearing of purity rings, which I think were slightly different in that they weren't so much about virtue signalling to a religious group, but putting a sign of 'don't touch' on oneself, in order to titillate. I remember a girl I knew who used to wear one, it would be a frequent occurrence her pointing it out and saying 'Do you know I'm a virgin?' for the hundredth time. Of course she was using it to try to lure this guy she eventually slept with. No judgement, we're all human, but I see an element of this in the modest fashion trend, it's just a lot more invasive because it's easy to avoid wearing a ring but less easy to avoid a prevailing trend in clothing where the clothes you would wear anyway (and thus you, yourself) are suddenly tagged 'modest'. I also do think a lot of women at this moment in time have gained more confidence to dress for themselves, but it feels like this 'modest' trend and label co-opts this in a retrograde, unnecessary way.

Zut alors!

Is this still going?

I used to wear baggy denim dungarees, hooded tops and kickers as a teen in the early 90s and in late teens early 20s wore thick black tights, kilted skirts, polonecked bodies and clumpy boots.

Being covered up wasnt at all unusual or done to be 'modest'.

Searching 90s fashion for women brings up everything from skimpy bra tops to shapeless baggy dungarees

Same here. Another search brought up Demi Moore in dungarees so baggy they could have been used as a family tent.

Molly Ringwald also featured a lot - looking fabulous in various quirky outfits all of which would meet the "modest" tick boxes.

I find the underlying narrative that women are somehow being saved from themselves by being given permission by "modest fashion" to choose what they want to wear rather offensive.

Searching 90s fashion for women brings up everything from skimpy bra tops to shapeless baggy dungarees.

Interestingly searching 80s fashions for women brought up ictures of both Bon Jovi and Mr T. I guess they are 'women' by current woke definitions.

Bertrand it is a myth. The same as the myth that thanks to modest fashion more women are demanding fashionable choices that don’t make a sex object out of you.

In the case of the latter myth simple Google images searches on 1980s fashion, 1990s fashion and 2000s fashion will show the huge variety of what women wore.

Plan- you said “ Dressing revealingly for young women is advised and celebrated in Western society as a feminist statement of sexual empowerment.”. Could you say some more about this and provide some evidence? Because it certainly isn’t my experience.

Wild thyme good post. Historically accurate. Amazing how many corset myths there are.

Badger-
Oui, I agree entirely. More women are demanding fashionable choices that don’t make a sex object out of you.

I think it's great that more women are realising they don't have to dress as sex objects to be fashionable. There's something very feminist about choosing how much of your body someone can see, or not

You think this realisation is new? Because it really isn't.

While I dislike the term 'modest' because the opposite, immodest, is judgemental, I think it's great that more women are realising they don't have to dress as sex objects to be fashionable. There's something very feminist about choosing how much of your body someone can see, or not. At a basic level as long as nobody is telling women what they should or shouldn't wear, be that a bikini or burqa or anything in between, it's all good.