Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat

What large breasted woman, with a lifetime of experience in the reactions that generally proves from heterosexual males, is going to want to go for a bra fitting in a shop where heterosexual males are allowed in as long as their "gender identity" is anything other than "cis"? Non binary can mean just about anything. You'd be hard pressed to find a male pop star from the 80s who didn't qualify.

I am rueing the day the GRA came in. It should have been worded in such a watertight way that this sort of situation would not arise. We should never have allowed the legal fiction of taking womanhood as an identity. I also think what Stonewall has done under Ruth is evil.
You would think a shop selling bras for larger breasted women would easily be able to invoke the equality act, but they are so afraid of litigation I think, that they would rather appease one person insisting they are “non binary” and therefore allowed in, than look after their thousands of female customers by giving them a single sex space.
Basically the cross dressing fetishists have been given the freedom of all women’s spaces, along with any woman hating beardy bloke who calls himself non binary.

Bravissimo specialize in customers with a narrow back and big boobs. What possible legitimate use could the, um, let's just say market in question have for their products?

Bravissimo ! That stupid comment “we welcome trans and non binary people but men are not allowed in “ So a male who says he is the nonsense term “non binary” can have a bra fitting ? Or any man identifying as trans, which under Stonewall now means basically everyone ? But not a “MAN” ? It is insane.

Every single shop will go this way as it's easier to dismiss sex-based rights than self-i.d. and TAs. I can't see any way to tackle it beyond disruption, stickering, using the men's, complaining tangibly about doors/curtains/behaviour etc, all the ideas shared here etc. I don't envisage a single shop managing to handle this in a way that works for everyone, and as with the entire universe, transwomen's rights trump women's rights for no apparent reason. I do however get why shops don't want their low-paid staff to have to argue the toss with aggressive transwomen making a fuss. It would be unmanageable and expose staff to impossible accusations and litigation. Big sigh. Women getting together to take these actions would have more impact than individuals of course... So deeply frustrating. Well done those who've tried to take action in the shops.

Thank fuck I already buy 95% of my clothes from charity shops and eBay. I’m going to have to go to someone who sells online only for my lingerie and tights.

The sad thing is, the staff will have had a picture painted for them of poor tortured souls suffering with gender dysphoria, while the people doing the painting are generally...not, and the perves who will be reacting with glee in the greatest numbers are definitely not.

Joani Walsh:

t.co/cdXb7ZpnIx Plus Primark, Urban Outfitters, Topshop, Topman, Evans, Wallis, MissSelfridge, Burton, River Island, Debenhams. French Connection and Zara refused to answer. The Gap and Next didn't reply. Laura Ashley welcomes all; it sells only women's clothing.

twitter.com/joaniwalshi/status/1197292224918278145?s=19

According to Joani Walsh’s twitter, Bravissimo has fallen. I’m gutted. My huge breasts are even more gutted. Where are we going to get our scaffolding from now?

One fucking tweet from one advert in one paper and they have responded. But not to all the tweets from women. Because women aren’t important.

How can you add a video to a paper?

Oh dear I had to laugh. M&S have now enraged all eco warriors by adding a video(yes a video) to their Xmas advert in the Metro. Useless prats.

I agree, and I did wonder about that although the woman in lingerie sounded very self - assured.

Two things she said were "If they're buying undies for their wives and girlfriends they don't need to try them on, do they?" and " We don't want any dirty men in with the ladies".

I suspect she is near retirement age and cares more about the customers than her job although that luxury won't apply to many staff.

As heartily as I approve of the women working in the shop Ada went into the problem is that they're open to disciplinary action from the idiots in head office if some angry genderist reports them. Wouldn't it be lovely if the head office actually listened to the people expected to enforce their stupid policies?

I was in an M&S today. Not my usual one (and I shall still use their toilets as they are clean and convenient) but about 50 miles away. It was actually quite interesting.

I picked up a couple of bras and a pair of pyjamas, and headed for the lingerie fitting room. There was a female member of staff by the entrance so I asked her politely where the single sex fitting rooms were, expecting the gender neutral stuff to be trotted out. To cut a long conversation short, she said that no men would be allowed in at all, and any who tried would be sent to "the gents" . When I mentioned the mixed gender policy she said that the men at head office were always coming up with "daft ideas" and they mostly ignored them. I nearly asked if she ever felt vulnerable, but she had the attitude, demeanour and build which suggested that actually the men might be the vulnerable ones.

I then spent a bit of time hovering round the trousers and jerseys, watching the entrance to the other fitting room on the women's wear floor. It was staffed by two women and I only saw women going in. One man was carrying a couple of dresses for his wife and I'm sure he was entirely innocent but he was pleasantly and firmly told to sit in one of the armchairs just outside the fitting room to wait for his wife who could come out to show him if she wanted.

I wonder how common that is. Head office policy is one thing but the staff on the shop floor may be deciding for themselves what is common sense. This shop is in a fairly small city and I guess they know what their regular and core customers want and expect.

I think they would be quick enough to monitor at all times if they thought you were making off with a pair of pants.

Making out on a pair of pants? Not so much...

The only way you would be monitored at all times in my branch is if some horrible pervy bloke put a camera up.

It's pointless, but I am currently enjoying reporting all m&s and John Lewis ads on my Facebook as inappropriate.

I’d laugh at that if it wasn’t so tragic.

Monitored my gusset.

They spout any old pish.

The changing room is certainly NOT “Monitored at all times” in my local branch. Even if that were true it is hardly the point.

they’d been given ‘a piece of paper telling us what to say
To who? To complaining customers or ones being inappropriate?

I spoke to the manager in M&S she assured me men would not be admitted into the lingerie changing rooms. When I said but your policy has changed she said it was a grey area and men would not be allowed in most cases. I was very polite and she seemed uncomfortable and said the changing room was monitored at all times and unacceptable behaviour would not be tolerated. The cubicles all locked but where open at the top.

I’m half inclined to give M&S staff business cards to hand out whenever people question this decision.

Saying they big boy did it and ran away’

Which they have done, leaving those left there to deal with it.

I did a recce in M&S Hastings this morning. I went into the, what everyone up till now will have thought of and probably still does, men’s changing room - at the end of the shop where the men’s clothes are, with a huge photo of a man on the wall that hits you in the eye while you’re still well outside, and with black and white pics of men covering the cubicle doors. Then I went into the, ditto, ladies’. All among the women’s underwear, torso mannequin wearing bra and knickers facing the door, sign saying ‘millions of women in Britain are wearing the wrong size bra’, and moderately sultry pics of women on the doors. I saw no difference between the cubicle layouts: both formerly-men’s and formerly- women’s had doors with gaps at the bottom, benches you could stand on to look over into the next cubicle, and disabled cubicles at the end with curtains, not doors.

I went back into the men’s to check about the disabled cubicle, as I hadn’t noted it properly the first time.

There were no staff and no customers in either. Each was signed simply ‘Fitting Room’.

Then I spoke to three female members of staff who were standing together, emphasising several times that I knew they weren’t responsible for the policy, and listing all the reasons why it was bad for women. And why it was deceptive, when the two fitting rooms were so obviously still ‘sexed’ in every way except for the verbal signs ouside.

I don’t want to get anyone in trouble, so I’ll just say that their attitudes seemed to vary.

I did ask if they’d been given extra training after this policy had been revealed. One of them told me they’d been given ‘a piece of paper telling us what to say’.

Not walking - wanking!!!!!

I'm now reading this thread, but I did rather like the last thread - after all it's not every day you find a thread with both shortbread AND walking...