Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat

Just wanted to say thanks from me Coat you are doing this for all women really, even those who are accepting of this change in policy. The signage for me is really important. I'll also email when I can.

Thank you coatandhat. Good luck searabbit.

Flipping heck. So angry about all this- have been boycotting M&S since I heard about this a couple of weeks ago. Now I don’t want to shop with Bravissimo either- I’m gutted as I only discovered them earlier in the year, and I’ve spent a lot of money with them in that year- they’ve been a revelation for me. But I will be worried about using their changing rooms now, so I won’t risk it

Aw. Thank you ladies. Just a small contribution. @Searabbit - I just said "Complaint" when the system asked what I wanted to talk about.

I've been inspired to call Customer Services myself. I'm currently on hold, but when I first called and the automated system asked me what I wanted to talk to, when I said 'changing rooms', I got an automated message and then cut off, so I then started by saying I was wanting to complain, and got a real person who said she couldn't do anything about it: so I'm waiting to talk to someone who can (in theory).

Well done, @Coatandhat, I can imagine how emotionally exhausting that must have been.

Well done

I second that

Coatandhat

Excellent. Well done.

As recommended by the M&S staff at my local store on Friday, I've just had a long conversation with Customer Services. First of all I spoke to a man who sounded surprised and unaware of the male reviews of women's underwear and also the changing room policy. He gave me an email address different from those I had tried before - in case anyone wants to try this one -

[email protected]

He then transferred me to a member of the Executive Team. We talked about the male underwear reviews and I suggested that if M&S wanted to retain the inappropriate reviews that have been reported, then perhaps there should be a separate section for those who like to indulge in the fetish and that M&S were gaining the wrong kind of reputation.

I said that I had already emailed them about the mixed changing rooms and received the template reply. I raised safeguarding and only acting after inappropriate behaviour by which point the damage has been done and asked whether the policy had been introduced as a result of such behaviour in the men's changing rooms. She said M&S was not prepared to give out that information. Almost in passing she mentioned that the policy had been in place for around a year as if that made it acceptable and I remarked that the very, very least they could do was to sign the fitting rooms as mixed so that people are able to decide for themselves whether to take the risk because for example, DH would not want to use a mixed changing room. She picked up on that and said that would definitely be passed on - how sad that this should make a difference.

The whole call lasted 30 minutes and I commented that it was emotionally tiring to have to do this and she sympathised because she thought I was referring to DD's experience of voyeurism but I made it clear that it wasn't that but the need to protest against such policies and the erosion of women's rights. She did urge me not to give up, so, again, it seems that staff have a view but are not allowed their say. I was assured that this was the highest point I could go to and that my comments had been recorded and would be seen by the Board.

Anyone new to the concept of an autogynephile fetishist might like to read this:

Abby Stein: how the Becoming Eve author went from rabbi to trans woman

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/abby-stein-how-the-becoming-eve-author-went-from-rabbi-to-trans-woman-k3fpxw8cg?shareToken=9c9cf32697b8437616d6c477df2252bf

BOOK EXTRACT
‘I loved my wife – but I also wanted to be her’

I loved my wife Fraidy’s clothes, her colourful underwear and pink nightgowns, her cute black and navy shoes, and her beautiful black dresses. I loved her perfume, the smell of it, how it made me feel, and the pretty crystal bottle it came in. I envied her jewellery – the pearl necklace, the gold-and-diamond watch and the white-gold bracelets. I used her shampoos and deodorant, and I secretly even wore her underwear a few times.

I loved Fraidy, and I wanted to be with her. But I also wanted to be her. Not her, exactly, but I wanted to be the woman – I wanted to be the wife.

It's not even just for the shoppers, it's the workers forced to play a part in a mans fetish. Unknowingly.

That's the bit I find REALLY unforgivable.

I just make sure that other people are aware of the policy. Is it fair for women to be blissfully ignorant? No.

Absolutely uncompromisingwoman
My at best £500 a year spend wont bankrupt them. But I feel better for refusing to spend any money there or JL. Or in fact in any shop that just let's men in. It's not even just for the shoppers, it's the workers forced to play a part in a mans fetish. Unknowingly.
So my modus operandi now is to visit a shop, any shop. Gather things I want to try on. Take to fitting room, have the conversation about men in change rooms. Decide to not take the chance and leave my stuff there. I dont go mental and pick 27 items, just 3 or 4. I'm not making loads more work for staff.
I at least have the conversation, make the workers and other women aware.
It's all I can do.

Christmas is around the corner and they are reliant on good food, clothing and gods sales (as well as new year spending). So and mass boycott will be evident fairly soon.

Uncompromisingwomen and it takes some money back! Usually get M&S turkey but I’m now going to my local farm shop and it’s cheaper!

I'm not certain a boycott will work - and it will certainly take months to see any evidence. BUT - as Daysofpearlyspencer pointed out, it's actually quite liberating to shop elsewhere. Showed me how lazy I had become and certainly it's a relief not to import all their shrink wrapped plastic fruit and veg home.
Just as I have chosen to boycott other companies over the years, boycotting M & S because of their vile attitude towards their women customers safety and privacy is a little hill that I'll die on. Being a woman and watching our rights being removed and handed over to men makes me feel very powerless - so this takes back just a little power.

I haven’t either, nor JL (to add to Always etc) and yes, it is liberating to fine new and better suppliers rather than the old ‘regular’ ones that you don’t even think about.

I am in the process of selling my mums flat, and need to repaint, carpet and replace curtains before it goes on the market. The is a large John Lewis Home round the corner, a natural place to source neutral midrange carpets and curtains. Instead I will look for equivalents and sort out an independent fitter. Not something I really want to do 100 miles from home, with only a portion of sale proceeds accruing to me. But hey....JL don't care about women so why should I care about them.

I have been a loyal Marks and Spencer customer since my mum took me for my first bra at 13, I typically buy all my Christmas presents plus cards, wrap etc from there. I haven't bought a single item since this started, I am buying elsewhere and it's quite liberating. I was feeling uncomfortable last year with all their plastic glitter and non recyclable paper anyway. Just bought a pack of knickers from Tesco and they seem much the same as I got in Mark's. I can't imagine going back there now.

Their changing rooms just say 'fitting rooms' which, by omission, might already be deemed to indicate mixed sex.

Realistically, this isn't going to change until there are incidents, I'm afraid.

M&S have brought in a bloke from Tesco's (F&F) /BHS to sort things out, so they're probably already doomed in the medium term to becoming an expensive ready meal supplier. I'm out.

What a shame The Sun article didn’t simply say “men trying on bras”. The language is too woolly for The Sun’s audience as some “transgender and non-binary people” will actually be female.

Well today I didn't spend about £120 in JL.

Money I was intending/needing to spend (needed to replace a couple of things) and would have normally spent in JL, and I just chose to go elsewhere. This could add up.

So it’s gone quiet in this. They and JL (and all the other stores - even ladies knicker shops) are refusing to engage on the subject at all and think Christmas fluff (sorry but a stuffed toy won’t do it, and the M&S ads make it look like the jumpers have fleas) will distract everyone.

What do we do? Are they breaking the law by having mixed sex changing areas and not actually implicitly telling people?

The whole point of exemptions in the Equality Act (for any characteristic) is to PERMIT discrimination.

There seems to be an idea that all discrimination is a bad thing and unlawful. It isn't.

Well done coatandhat - we need to follow your example.

There are more of us than there are M&S stores so if every store experiences women going in to speak to the manager about changing room policy, that noise has to filter back to Head Office.