Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat

Suggest reporting reviews from males (ie the one who mentions his delight at a lacy panel offering 'a naughty touch', heave) and querying why M&S don't use male models to advertise their lacy lingerie in that case.Well spotted whoever flagged this up; once you start looking their reviews are packed with men getting off on wearing their pants.

Thank you @Jeanhatchet You are doing amazing work for women. If anyone is interested, here's a link to Jean's blog. A PP mentioned a massive escalation in men's predatory behaviour towards women and girls. I don't think it's a grand conspiracy but it feels like a war on women.

jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2019/09/ride-for-murdered-women-female-peloton.html

All this stuff - this & the Samaritans stuff - and even the NSPCC & CBBC stuff - if we join the dots, it's all a massive escalation in male predatory behaviour against women and children.

Yes, it is. The demolition of all safeguarding. And it won't end well. But it'll take a long time for anyone in authority to care because most of the victims will be the genuinely (not the self-identified) marginal and their voices are always ignored until it's too late.

Good work jean

Yeah I do think it is all about women and girls BEING FORCED to accept men wherever men want to be and not being able to say anything b🤐

My everyday M&S big knickers have the gusset fully sewn. Not sexy enough.

Big knickers every time! I get mine from Tesco, high waist, very comfy! And they come in sealed packs of 4, and no changing rooms! Yay!

I used to wear sexier ones and did wonder why they suddenly appeared unsewn maybe a little less than 15 years ago, and yes, I’m also talking about M&S knickers. Now I know. I don’t buy the easier to sew bs.

I've never worn sexy knickknacks, not even when I was young. Husband loved me anyway! :)

Elodie I don't what your problem is here - nobody's suggesting being abusive to the changing room staff. Asking questions is fine - otherwise how will they be aware women are unhappy?

Thank you @JeanHatchet for your sterling work

I can't be the only person to have used "client dissatisfaction" as a tool to dislodge a policy I was unhappy with in the workplace.

You are not. I've used this in a variety of workplaces to challenge bad policies.

@Elodie2019 I didn't have to contact the press - they contacted me. Some of em didn't even bother contacting me.... just took my pictures and tweets etc. We all know when we do something they will lift it out of our accounts anyway.

So shall I just stop doing stuff now you've told me what's what? Or shall I carry on campaigning on a variety of issues in my own way as I have done for a few years?

I am really pleased to see so many women running with their own ideas about tackling this one small issue and Woman's Place and FairPlay on board is great. Loads of different women talking to the press. Lots of people outside feminism having conversations they weren't before. All just doing our own thing and no one getting annoyed with each other. You'd almost think women would welcome that kind of joint action for a change. Wouldn't you?

It makes it so much harder to given children guidance. The old if you see man in ladies or changing rooms tell a grown up, isn't going cut any mustard. If child or women feels uncomfortable being stared
At or listened to there is still a high bar of actual assault or filming before it’s “offensive”. Regardless of how it makes you feel unsafe.

I think it's imperative that we all speak to shop floor staff.

We'll have to agree to disagree there.
Shop floor staff have their hands tied. They are expected to follow policy. Without question. They can't agree with you when you speak to them about something that goes against company policy.

Managers and supervisors have the door to HO open to them. They can feed back that this policy is having a negative impact in all sorts of ways.

Managers and supervisors hate dealing with customer complaints face to face. They would much rather you complain to 'Sue on changing rooms' for They can ignore that as it doesn't impact on them.

Ah oops I just realised that's quite old! Ignore me.

I haven't spotted a link to this yet, seems that even if Head Office have sent out a memo not all staff have got it, making it even more confusing for everyone concerned. I am not clear if this was a woman who identifies as a man or vice versa but it does sound like the former. Which makes it slightly more odd as it seems most women asking to change in the men's have been told "well, you won't want to, but go ahead".

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/ms-caught-in-transgender-row-after-actress-liz-carrs-friend-refused-entry-to-changing-room-a3756136.html

All this stuff - this & the Samaritans stuff - and even the NSPCC & CBBC stuff - if we join the dots, it's all a massive escalation in male predatory behaviour against women and children.

yes, yes it is. This is the end goal.

This is nothing about transgender is it.

This is all about dismantling barriers to protect women and children. Girls get used to having strange men in close proximity. This reduces their sense of a right to privacy and their right to say no.

The on line lingerie comments make clear. M&S know what they are doing. They know the problems. They don't care.

Placemarking. I've still been waffling away on the old thread

There is often queue to use marks changing room, NEVER seen one for the men’s. Maybe when men have start joining long queue they will start complaining. And immediately get listening to of course.

I'm still waiting for my follow-up response from John Lewis. I emailed the MD Paula Nickolds yesterday to ask about their policy and had a response from a Director Relations case manager who said she would look into it for me and would be in touch.

I haven't had any response from my email to Stuart Rose, chairman of Ocado.

Many years back, when talk about unixes changing rooms and toilets was starting, I assumed there was going to be unisex option as an ADDITION to male and female.

Isn't the reverse also true?

How many M&S staff know what the policy says, are deeply uncomfortable with it but do not feel able to challenge it? They might be quite relieved that it's finally getting attention from their core customer base and it is entirely legitimate - indeed, responsible - behaviour to pass up the line the complaints and objections they are hearing from customers now.

I can't be the only person to have used "client dissatisfaction" as a tool to dislodge a policy I was unhappy with in the workplace.

But everyone has done that. Multiple emails to different addresses all either ignored or a cut and paste reply that addresses none of the issues whatsoever.

You can see yourself that every tweet that didnt tell them how amazing their stupid jumper ad was is ignored. And let's not forget that alot of the tweets are hidden . You have to click on view to read.

I think it's imperative that we all speak to shop floor staff. M&S clearly have a staff communication problem (or they want to play these things down/keep it secret) since from just our posts you can see that shop floor staff aren't aware of this. Perhaps if more of them are aware they will start, en masse, speaking management and telling them it isn't on. I have to say I would be sacked if I worked for them because I would refuse to fit a man with a bra and would refuse any man (however they are dressed) access to the womens fitting room.

In my view M&S are trying to play this down and think/hope that their customers (mainly older women) will just shut up and get on with it. I think a lot of women won't speak out and challenge, they don't want to be seen to make a fuss. Causing a bit of chaos - using mens fittings rooms (afterall it's confirmed that's all ok), boycotting and spreading the message are things that need to be continued.

I've emailed management and not had a response. What else do we do?

You, I, along with everyone on here/twitter-keep e-mailing, contacting the press, complaining in-store to retail managers

Jean: what I'm trying to say to you about your assertion that I was wrong to visit stores is ...

I have made no 'assertion' of the kind!

Once again... (Cut and paste from my post) By all means speak directly to the store manager who has the power to feed back to HO

Yes, I have spoken to store managers about all sorts of issues.

Yes, you are right to challenge retailers in store (see copy and paste again from previous post).

I don't think it's fitting to directly challenge floor staff on issues like this. They may agree with you but they can't voice that agreement if it goes against company policy.

I believe they they are not allowed to have a voice in this scenario.
Store managers on the other hand have got a voice.

Yes, I have worked in retail.

that shop floor staff and their views DO matter and the effect is not always "trickle down" unless you believe workers are utterly without a voice against their employers?

Precisely, Jean. You're not highlighting poor service by individuals or trying to get them sanctioned (hello, genderists - that's wankstain, classist behaviour, by the way and you should stop it) - you're trying to ascertain how they've been trained and how they feel about policy.

Needmoresleep

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