Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat

Yup, boycotting Next too, and will email them back to tell them.

In the meantime, I suggest that we all boycott these stores wherever possible, but that above all, we boycott and protest against M&S - yes, maybe that seems unfair, but they are the ones currently receiving the most publicity, and will therefore receive the most publicity for next quarter’s sales figures (and the reason why they have nosedived even further despite the usually lucrative festive period).

If they can be forced to see the idiocy of their changing rooms policy, and change it back to single sex (+/- provide “third spaces” if they feel the need), then we can all flock back to them so that other retailers consider changing back also. I like M&S and want to go back, but I will not unless they make female changing rooms single (biological) sex once again.

That email from next, just ridiculous. When they say that customers should use the right changing room for their “gender identity “ wtf does that even mean ? I don’t have one, nor do any women I know, so does that mean we don’t have an allocated changing room...? Oh right, it does.
Have genderfeels and you can saunter bravely into any space. Have a personality and a sex, and you can’t try on clothes.

Any sign of change in policy yet M and S??

youropinionisnoted

excellent post. I do hope M&S take this seriously.

I have been talking to friends about this issue because I read about it on MN. They all believed that Mixed changing rooms were in addition to male and female.
I think most people probably are also thinking it. Not good.

Also @Jeanhatchet - Massive thanks to you. You are doing the most important work of us all.

@CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost

The eternal optimist in me hoped for more I suppose!

@Justabaker and @YourOpinionIsNoted - fantastic work.

Scenario A: Amirah is a Muslim woman. She is forbidden by her religious beliefs to share changing spaces with men. Amirah wants to try on some clothing in your store, but in order to feel comfortable that she is not breaking a tenant of her religion, she needs to be certain there are no males present. Which fitting rooms should Amirah use?

Scenario B: Joyce is 79 years old and has limited mobility. She needs to use the disabled-friendly changing cubicle, which does not have a lockable door, only a curtain. Joyce is horrified by the idea that males could be in the changing area with her and is unable to use a cubicle with a door lock as a result of her disability. Where could Joyce go in your store to feel comfortable?

Scenario C: Anna is a victim of sexual assault. As a result of this trauma, Anna feels afraid to undress in the presence of males. Anna wants to try on some jeans. Where should Anna go to feel comfortable while in a state of undress?

Scenario D: Bethany has brought her 13 year old daughter, Eva, for her first bra fitting. Eva is nervous and embarrassed about her changing body. She wants to know there will be only other girls and women around her during her bra fitting. Where can Bethany take her daughter so that she feels comfortable?

Scenario E: Debbie is recovering from a mastectomy. She is still receiving cancer treatment and is emotionally and physically vulnerable. She is uncomfortable with the scars and shape of her chest and needs a supportive, female-only environment. Where should Debbie go to feel comfortable in your store?

Scenario F: Jonathan likes to dress up in women's clothing. It creates feelings of sexual arousal. He likes to try on female underwear and take pictures of himself doing so, in a state of arousal, then return the soiled items to the rack for unsuspecting women to pick up. Jonathan feels very comfortable in the female changing areas. Where would you want your staff to direct Jonathan to change when in your store?

This is great, thanks Opinion. These are exactly the type of scenarios I think of and wonder why on earth any of these shops think it's ok to let a man into our changing rooms?

It is literally putting men with a fetish's wants over the rights, safety and dignity of women and girls. I can't get my head around why they ever thought it was ok. Actually, I do know. It's because they've been brainwashed by training from certain people who have told them that 'Jonathan' is 'stunning and brave' and therefore needs to be able to go wherever he wants, do whatever he wants and anyone who questions him is a hateful bigot.

If anyone reading this works at m&s I recommend bringing up this issue with your in store BIG representative, it can be done in confidence.

I'm horrified by the male reviews on the M&S website.

I attempted to peak four people at the weekend about this, every single one of them was already aware and disgusted.

I love the idea of Safe Retailers for Women. SRW. We could even set up a website.

It could be a way for us to support all shops that are putting women first, to find substitutions for things we normally buy in non safe retailers, and a way to encourage more and more shops to remember that women are female and that we have rights too.

I'm onto email 3 to m&s now. Here is an extract if anyone else wants to adopt the same line of questioning:

Should you feel an uncharacteristic degree of respect towards a customer, please feel free to answer the following questions, or indeed, the questions from my original email. As you are seemingly so concerned with your customers' comfort, I have focused on the need to feel comfortable in your stores.

Scenario A: Amirah is a Muslim woman. She is forbidden by her religious beliefs to share changing spaces with men. Amirah wants to try on some clothing in your store, but in order to feel comfortable that she is not breaking a tenant of her religion, she needs to be certain there are no males present. Which fitting rooms should Amirah use?

Scenario B: Joyce is 79 years old and has limited mobility. She needs to use the disabled-friendly changing cubicle, which does not have a lockable door, only a curtain. Joyce is horrified by the idea that males could be in the changing area with her and is unable to use a cubicle with a door lock as a result of her disability. Where could Joyce go in your store to feel comfortable?

Scenario C: Anna is a victim of sexual assault. As a result of this trauma, Anna feels afraid to undress in the presence of males. Anna wants to try on some jeans. Where should Anna go to feel comfortable while in a state of undress?

Scenario D: Bethany has brought her 13 year old daughter, Eva, for her first bra fitting. Eva is nervous and embarrassed about her changing body. She wants to know there will be only other girls and women around her during her bra fitting. Where can Bethany take her daughter so that she feels comfortable?

Scenario E: Debbie is recovering from a mastectomy. She is still receiving cancer treatment and is emotionally and physically vulnerable. She is uncomfortable with the scars and shape of her chest and needs a supportive, female-only environment. Where should Debbie go to feel comfortable in your store?

Scenario F: Jonathan likes to dress up in women's clothing. It creates feelings of sexual arousal. He likes to try on female underwear and take pictures of himself doing so, in a state of arousal, then return the soiled items to the rack for unsuspecting women to pick up. Jonathan feels very comfortable in the female changing areas. Where would you want your staff to direct Jonathan to change when in your store?

@JaneR0chester. thank you.

Here's my email to the Daily Mail.

I have taken some good stuff from many different PPs on the three threads. Thanks to all of you. I also sent them some links and a number of screenshots of the reviews.

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Perverts Reign on line at M&S

Following on from the stories about men accessing the women's lingerie fitting rooms at M&S - I was looking on line. I noticed a very weird pattern on the M&S website.

The website allows for product reviews and for others to identify reviews as 'helpful' or 'unhelpful'. Most reviews get no 'helpful' thumbs up. Or possibly one or two. However, certain reviews, those by men who are buying the knickers for themselves get 20, 30, 40 'helpful' thumbs up signals. What is going on here?

There is a known fetish - autogynephilia. Men who are sexually aroused by wearing women's underwear and clothing. They are aroused thinking of themselves as 'women' and wanting to participate in communities of women and enjoy women chat. The trend towards unisex toilets and self id has brought this into women's everyday lives. We now may meet a bloke in a frock putting on lipstick in the toilets. They don't just want to use our spaces for their biological functions they want to talk to us about girlie stuff (or what they imagine is girlie). This is apparently known as 'sissification' and there are some really disgusting websites devoted to it.

Back to M&S. Men buy their girlie knickers on line and then post reviews about it. They identify themselves as male. It's a 'bat signal' to other men. Those men then pile in and mark their reviews as most helpful so the site will surface them to the top of the page. They want women to know. They want to rub our faces in it.

M&S must know. No one runs a big e-commerce site without spotting a trend like this. All reviews apparently go through some kind of 'moderation' as well. M&S know that kinky men are using their site for sexual thrills. What's the next step? Why not just take gender off their reviews? No, because that wouldn't be helpful to men who want to get sexual thrills trying to buy women's underwear. Instead M&S published a policy of allowing men to enter the women's lingerie fitting rooms on the basis of 'they feel most comfortable there'.

What do they think is going to happen next?

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@theflushedzebra that's probably the most disturbing thing I've seen on MN. Ever. Grim.

@artisanparsnips John Lewis of course! You can do a quick search on their website and select non-wired and choose by size. They have sizes from 28D upwards. This one starts at a 30 band though.

Back to Jean, I thought she did a great job in that video. And although JL hadn't passed the message onto the shop floor yet, at least for now it's looking promising. Let's hope they make it actual policy.

Which lucky woman will be coming across this man in the changing rooms??

Have these been posted here yet?

Not M&S (this guy is in the US) - but clearly WOULD be in M&S if he was in the UK.

How many women's lingerie shops are going to expect women to tolerate this and make space in their changing rooms for male fetishists?

If M&S and others made their women's fitting rooms female only, as well as protecting the privacy of women and girls, it would also, presumably, protect their bra-fitting staff, indeed any staff, from being obliged to service males with a fetish, as seems to be the current policy. They might not be quite so keen to ask for 'help' from the sales assistant in menswear.

Jeez, M&S, can't you see how bad this looks?

littlecabbage

did you expect anything else?

I haven’t read all this morning’s updates yet, but just wanted to share the response I have received from NEXT (SPOILER - IT’S NOT GOOD NEWS):

Thank you for your reply in relation to the use of our fitting rooms.

At Next, we do try to be accommodating to as many customers as possible, and we want them to be happy to try on products in our stores.

I just wanted to explain that customers may use any available fitting room that suits their chosen gender identity. And provided the customer is in the changing room for their chosen gender, they can try on garments from any range.

Of course, if you do have any concerns when visiting our stores, please don’t hesitate to speak to a senior Manager who will be happy to assist you in any way they can.

Many thanks again for getting in touch.

Right, I just emailed the Daily Mail with a link to the last thread, and told them to check out the last few pages. I can just imagine theDM reader outrage if they pick up the story; the boycott could very well go viral.
I'm sorry for their staff. Especially if this brings them down.

I can only jump on MN for a few mins at a time. I really want to email the top bods at M&S and John Lewis (I have credit cards with them both) and any other retailers, but don't have time to scroll back through 100s of posts. Where can I get the right email addresses to use? Huge thanks busy women!