Use of ‘they’ as inclusive

Seriously if you found an item belonging to unknown person you'd say: "it has left its phone?"

No, I'd say "someone has left a phone". And stick it in the lost property box.

Does anyone have a link to the video of an annoying person (I realise this is a wide field) telling us how to use pronouns? Along the lines of DONT worry if ‘they’ is plural, it is, and if you get it wrong don’t make a fuss, just don’t do it again.

I only ask because that video was very useful in discussions. I don’t think I can say more than that here.

How can wearing chunky black helped boots add to the shoes funky look? It has to mean Sam. Bht then I have no issue with singular they at all.

When I was at university in the late 90s it was becoming unacceptable to use “he” as a default. It’s not a new thing at all.

On their feet they wore a pair of chunky black heeled shoes, further adding to their funky look.

which suggests it was the shoes which had a funky look

I would have read it as meaning the shoes added to Sam's funky look, because I know the article is about Sam and "they wore a pair of chunky black heeled shoes, further adding to the shoes funky look" doesn't make any sense anyway, so why you would think that's what is implied idk,

s/he is fine. But won't the nonbinaries cry when everyone uses "they" because they won't be validated as nonbinaries?

I’m absolutely cool with they/their and will very happily use it in the singular for loads of reasons - referring to my DC online like MN, referring to people I haven’t met & am not sure what sex they are, generic ‘persons’ and indeed to avoid misgendering a trans person.

‘They’ is totally within the bounds of my tolerance, and often grammatically correct.

I really hate the pronouns thing when it’s deliberately making a dumb point (‘my pronouns are She/They’; my pronouns are ‘They/Their’ when gender presentation and sexual is completely obviously ‘She/Her’ etc) I’m never going to be persuaded to state my own pronouns.

99% of the time when I use 'they', it's on MN and it's because I'm talking about something relating to one of my children and their sex is irrelevant - chicken pox symptoms, or fussy eating etc.

I try to avoid labelling behaviours as typically girl or boy where possible, mainly for myself rather than anyone else. Unconscious bias is very strong!

Back in the day I used to routinely use "they" on internet forums when I did not know the sex of the speaker. I thought it was the polite option. I have given this up after being denounced by someone who saw the use of "they" as a way of avoiding using the preferred pronouns of someone who we all should magically have known was a trans woman. (It was an anonymous internet forum. We did not know anyone's sex or how they identified.)

After that experience, I do indeed now use "they" as a way of avoiding sexed pronouns. Once you realise that there is no action apart from constant, grovelling submission that will be seen as the "correct" action, you might as well do as you like.

Specifically, the APA suggests using “they” when “a generic person’s … gender is unknown or irrelevant to the context” or “when referring to a specific, known person who uses ‘they’ as their pronoun.”

I have no issue with using 'they' when a generic person's SEX is unknown or irrelevant to the context. It may make for some unnecessary circumlocutions in order to make, say, Sam stride out, rather than their trousers stride out.

However the only pronouns that any person can claim as theirs are I/me/my. Third person pronouns describe the speaker's perceptions, not anyone else's. So I will only use 'they' when I perceive it as appropriate, not when somebody decides to compel my speech.

Peer-reviewed journals, that should read. Auto correct, grrr.

The APA's research policies are evidently as batty as their awful, counter-intuitive referencing system. By the same token I wonder how many people it's occurred to that through 'APA style's' insistence on listing researchers in the bibliography by their initial only, they are 'de-sexing' their contributors and in so doing minimizing the work of female researchers who have long struggled for recognition in the discipline. This shows they were probably already on this treadmill to madness quite some time ago.

I'm grateful I'm not an American psychologist, and hoping [forlornly] that the madness doesn't spread to too many peer-reviewed journalists or universities. Too late, I fear ...

The use of 'they' as an unspecified sex singular is not some newfangled usage.

This. I have always used it in documentation at work, things like, "ask the user if they know when the problem first happened." I work in a male-dominated area, and it's important not to use "he" as the singular pronoun by default if you don't know who you're talking about. And quite often, even when I know the name of someone I am working with remotely, I don't know their sex, because they have a name which isn't clearly male or female to me. It might be easier if we had a neutral 3rd person singular pronoun as some languages do, but the ones I'm aware of then use the 3rd person singular male form, so it's not as neutral as all that.

If I heard someone refer to me as "they", it wouldn't bother me; I would probably be upset if I heard them refer to me as "it", and I suspect I'm not alone in that preference. What they call me when I can't hear I am not too bothered about, though I suspect on occasion, it won't always be positive, so sometimes, it's best not to know anyway.

I do struggle to use "they" as a pronoun when I do know someone's sex, but if they're actually in the room, I'm likely to refer to them as "you" in any case. I haven’t come across people insisting on particular pronouns at work, but I work in a very international workplace, and in some cases, if they're using English pronouns correctly at all, that's a win. I don't reckon anyone who isn't yet completely fluent in English needs their language learning complicated further by something that many native English speakers struggle to get their heads round.

Using they for an unkown person is one thing, using it about a nemed person another.

To take the case of Sam Smith to me Sam Smith is the former British number one tennis player. I am both old and a tennis fan. If you talk about Sam Smith and use 'they' I will not realise you are talking about the bloke who sings. I will assume you are talking about the woman who plays tennis. If you use 'he' I'll know who you are referring to. Use of 'they' has restricted understanding in this case.

On their feet they wore a pair of chunky black heeled shoes, further adding to Sam's funky look.

That is just a hideous mangling of the English language. It's horrifically badly written in order to wedge in the woke pronouns. It's not the pronouns themselves that make this sentence so awful. It's the appalling syntax trying to wrangle in as many gender neutral pronouns as possible.

Why not say: Sam wore chunky, black-heeled shoes, adding to the funky look? (I mean where else would shoes be worn than feet ffs?)

It’s all so draining and controlling at the same time.

Unknown rather than ukown (phone is playing up!)

Not sure why people are saying that they wouldn't be used as singular above.

Seriously if you found an item belonging to uknown person you'd say: "it has left its phone?"

As i always say in these threads. They is not always a plural.

It has a common singular use when dealing with people of uknown gender
Say you found a phone belonging to an uknown person
"Oh no, they have left their phone!"

I get people have other issues with the use of they but it seems to always involve lots of people saying its a plural when ithas lots of recognised singular use

cis for example)

I'm loving the way cis is being slipped in any chance it gets, despite it not being allowed on here. Just say bloody man ffs, people will know what you mean.

The options for singular are he, she or it. They is plural. So unless you identify as being multiple people you need to choose one of the singular options.

Absolutely agree!

I reckoned it was the DM writer having a GC dig.

Does anyone have a problem with the first part of the APA suggestions using “they” when “a generic person’s … gender is unknown or irrelevant to the context” ?

😬