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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?'

110 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/11/2019 20:07

Fantastic thread copied over from Twitter. @gigilarue4, a US woman, posted it yesterday.
***
Imagine, if you will, your thirteen year old daughter coming to you, out of the blue with some news. Imagine your happy, great looking, healthy, smart, successful, socially active child coming to you and saying tearfully “Mom, I’m too fat. I’m not supposed to be 105 pounds. I’m supposed to be 65 pounds. I hate to look in the mirror and I hate my body this way”.

Suddenly, they start wearing baggy jeans, heavy sweatshirts and oversized clothes to make themselves appear smaller. They spend hours on the internet looking at pictures of 65 pound people who have successfully achieved their goal with excessive dieting and liposuction. They become obsessed with every bite of food they take, after a lifetime of loving French fries, pizza, ice cream, pasta, cooking- suddenly that passion for food has evaporated. All they think about is how happy they will be when they get to be 65 pounds.

You talk to the counselor at their school. She says, “Awww…talk to this person, she’s an expert”, and she hands you a business card. The person is a doctor at Children’s Hospital, and she has an Eating Disorder clinic that is world famous. You call and explain your situation to her social worker.

The social worker says that you kid can come in and be put on a liquid diet of 500 calories a day and will reach her goal weight of 65 pounds in a few months. They can then do liposuction on the areas that didn’t thin out they way they should have.

You pause, certain you misheard her and say, “Excuse me? She’s supposed to be 105 pounds. That’s a healthy weight”, & the social worker says, ”Well, you need to accept that you now have a 65 pound child. The suicide rate for kids with this issue is 40%. Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?”

You obviously want your kid alive so you ask about therapy. The social worker says “We don’t find mental health evaluations useful. These kids just know who they are and once they realize this about
themselves, parents need to step out of the way and let them take this journey. If we have to involve the law to get parents on the right side of this, we will. That’s a last resort, but it happens.I do have a therapist who is also 65 pounds, and they can talk to your kid about
how the process works”.

You say thank you and hang up. Something doesn’t feel right. You call a few other therapists and they either don’t work with kids or they have a very limited knowledge of this particular Eating Disorder. A few say they specialize in this issue and have had several patients that have eventually all gotten to 65 pounds. “Nobody in my practice has ever not gone down the road”, they say, “They just know what’s right for them”.

In the following weeks, your kid stops eating and develops depression, anxiety and spends too much time looking at emaciated people on Instagram. Every conversation is about food or weight-loss, every meal is excruciating. Any attempts to use logic like, “65 pounds is not a healthy weight and impossible to maintain that long term without serious health effects” is met with anger and accusations of invalidating her authentic self.

You research more and find that the consensus of all of the major medical organizations- Pediatric Endocrine Society, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medial Association-is that once your kid decides they are supposed to be 65 pounds, there’s nothing anyone can do. They just know, and you need to support them. Simply having the thought is enough to proceed with the liquid diet and liposuction.

Any attempt to reason with them or convince them to nourish themselves is considered child abuse conversion therapy and laws are enacted to prevent therapists who might be concerned about their mental well being from addressing it.

You come across several websites created by kids who did this exact thing- who are now older and their bodies are permanently destroyed from adverse effects of long term starvation.Their brains, organs and metabolic system is out of whack and it will never be the same. No matter how much they try to regulate it, they will never be able to get back their once healthy body. They wish they’d been given an alternative immediate affirmation of their misconception that they were overweight. They wish the doctors had told them no.

Now replace “65 pounds” with “trans”. That’s what this feels like.
***

OP posts:
Datun · 12/11/2019 09:17

I'm sure there's that too midge. Puberty, with all it's adult implications, whilst still feeling nothing like an adult, is confusing and a pain.

Many 12 or 13 year olds with breasts which draw attention, would absolutely, wish those breasts elsewhere.

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 09:00

I suspect that body hatred can have internal as well as external causes. I suspect that the external dominates. I suspect that in many cases an internal hatred stems from rapid changes, because whenever something changes ( job, uniform) people feel bad. I suspect that like nature nurture debate that will be pretty hard to get to the bottom of. I suspect that an inability of self regulate the harmful feelings may have an internal component. Like depression.

These are all internal to the mind problems. Wouldn't it be best to fix the mind if it's broken in that way.

Datun · 12/11/2019 08:53

I wasn't referring to societal expectations. I was referring to the many, many posts I've seen on here over the years from posters about how much they loathe their female body

Where does body dissatisfaction come from, if not societal expectations?

Which is why the ideal changes over time and geography. Hour glass, heroin chic, small breasts, pointed breasts, big breasts, etc. For decades 'does my bum look big in this' was a common refrain comedic even. Now Kardashianesque bottom inserts are encouraged.

All society imposted. I mean labioplasty???

Mumofone2001 · 12/11/2019 08:52

I watch alot of documentaries on trans people and their doctors ect. Mostly because documentaries are a easy was to understand without having to wade through research online! I have seen multiple times that doctors who talk about how people are now coming to them and wanting to change back or that there are record numbers of suicide by people realising changing gender didn't fix them, they have to change the voice of the doctor and blur out faces so that no one knows who they are! Can you imagine blurring the face of a doctor talking about any other issue?

Ereshkigal · 12/11/2019 08:38

That may well be the case but it really isn't a valid argument here. 18- 25 year olds are not children. For many, many, purposes, including marriage in Scotland, 16 year olds are not children.

Puberty blockers may prevent your brain developing normally so capacity to consent to irreversible medical treatment and sterility is a poorly understood grey area. I don't think people really consider how serious a process it is to stop a child ever going through their natural puberty. It's really just a big experiment.

ShonaAndTheWaterHorse · 12/11/2019 08:33

FWR usually challenges this tho, through analysis, not endorse it

I wasn't referring to societal expectations. I was referring to the many, many posts I've seen on here over the years from posters about how much they loathe their female body and the assumption that this is a normal reaction. I keep a note of words of wisdom and words of wtf - can give you examples.

justchecking1 · 12/11/2019 08:33

Body dysmorphia is very complex. In a minority of cases where all other treatment has been tried, the individual is actually happier following surgery to correct their issue. This often involves the removal of a healthy limb.

In the vast majority of cases, the individual is no happier and the issues simply transfer to something else.

However, you'd never go round cutting off the limbs from everyone who asked because statistically you'll only help a few people, and harm statistically more.

This seems to me the case with trans people. There are a few who will benefit, but we seem to have adopted the view of treating everyone just so the minority who would be helped aren't missed. Obviously, as with other dysmorphias, it won't help the majority, and these will be left suffering serious harm.

Ereshkigal · 12/11/2019 08:30

Cardiovascular risk increase is a well documented side effect of oestrogen.

Also that in a woman, where that level of oestrogen is natural it appears to have a protective effect, declining after the menopause. Not so for a man taking cross sex hormones. Because men and women, whatever their gender identity, are biologically different.

ShonaAndTheWaterHorse · 12/11/2019 08:29

Legally, an 18yo is considered an adult (though even then not entirely, eg I think that an 18yo cannot adopt a child)

You can adopt at age 21.

Medically, it is recognised that both brain and body do not reach physical maturity until early to mid 20s

That may well be the case but it really isn't a valid argument here. 18- 25 year olds are not children. For many, many, purposes, including marriage in Scotland, 16 year olds are not children.

Datun · 12/11/2019 08:25

I don't think it is remotely the experience of most women- it might be the experience of women who post on FWR but I've never personally come across the sort of loathing of one's body which is taken as normal on FWR.

There is a definite push to make women feel physical dissatisfaction. Hence Botox, breast implants, cosmetic surgery, even labioplasty, for heavens sake. None of which can be sold without a strong negative critique of one's own body.

FWR usually challenges this tho, through analysis, not endorse it.

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 08:24

Well one could argue , perhaps uncontroversionally, that the mental health of women who don't fit the gender expectation is adversely affected by discrimination in society . You don't need to call them trans for a start

Seems to me far healthier overall to remove that gender based expectation and someone's boobs but hey ho

Ereshkigal · 12/11/2019 08:24

It’s also freely available that many people who have had affirming hormone therapy and surgery spend a much greater part of their lives visiting doctors to deal with the complications and many still don’t feel like their dysphoria has been relieved.

YY, and haven't got the figures to hand, but isn't it them who have higher suicide rates afterwards? Because it isn't children, despite what is claimed by certain propaganda the hard of thinking may read.

Ereshkigal · 12/11/2019 08:19

The mental health outcomes of trans people is largely due to discrimination.

Citation please. And I don't mean, "something I read on a Stonewall leaflet"

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 08:19

Physical health is intrinsically linked to mental health. Someone who is mentally well is more likely to seek timely medical advice for physical health issues and engage in preventative measures too. All this is available from a google search, lovely.

It’s also freely available that many people who have had affirming hormone therapy and surgery spend a much greater part of their lives visiting doctors to deal with the complications and many still don’t feel like their dysphoria has been relieved. Maybe do a search, lovely.

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 08:15

That study does not look at mental health outcomes. It looks at body image and perception as an outcome and “passing”. There is nothing to say their depression or suicidality improved and there is no clarity on what affirming therapies were counted. It also states in the Limitations:

Because this study was an observational data analysis of an EHR cohort and a cross-sectional survey, the results do not establish causality

Those surveyed are also physically worse off. Cardiovascular risk increase is a well documented side effect of oestrogen. It’s also worth noting that the BMJ published recently trans women having higher rates of (male) breast cancer as a result.

ShonaAndTheWaterHorse · 12/11/2019 08:14

I really think you have no idea what it's like to have a hatred of your body and a simultaneous hatred of the gender expectations that are forced upon you simple because you have a certain body

What? That soundsexactlylike the experience of most women, especially as we go through adolescence and come to terms with how the world treats us

I don't think it is remotely the experience of most women- it might be the experience of women who post on FWR but I've never personally come across the sort of loathing of one's body which is taken as normal on FWR.

Themyscira · 12/11/2019 08:13

Off you pop hun.

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 08:13

@ChilledBee
This isn't about changing facilities. How trivialising

This is about children's lives and what's best for children.

It seems that you dont respect the experiances of transpeople , and you only accept people as trans if they surgically alter themselves. And you encourage harmful actions by propagating a myth that it will help.

I don't accept someone else telling me what to think, what to feel, how to be , how to present

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 08:11

@NotBadConsidering

Physical health is intrinsically linked to mental health. Someone who is mentally well is more likely to seek timely medical advice for physical health issues and engage in preventative measures too. All this is available from a google search, lovely.

Do one.

I'm seriously out now. I'm not here to educate the masses about shit you can learn on Youtube.

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 08:09

@JellySlice

So rather than the 0.something percent of "children under the age of 25" who are trans,why isn't your focus on the 99.everything per cent of "children under 25" who are working full time, getting married, having kids, fighting wars, having boob jobs and lip fillers and looking after "proper grown ups" who should be looking after them given they are essentially minors. Surely they arent mature enough for all that and it is a travesty that we let these massive children make these sorts of decisions.

JellySlice · 12/11/2019 08:08

The mental health outcomes of trans people is largely due to discrimination.

Discrimination from their own sex class. Men need to accept transwomen as full members of their sex class, and to accept that they widen the boundaries of what it means to be a man. This is even enshrined in law.

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 08:05

And ChilledBee

You said they are physically healthier. Can you explain how someone is physically healthier if they have to visit a surgeon repeatedly for complications of their surgeries their bodies didn’t need? The complication rates are high in surgeries such as orchidectomy, penectomy and cavity formation for example.

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 08:04

www.pcori.org/research-results/2013/examining-health-outcomes-people-who-are-transgender

What was the research about?
People who are transgender have a gender identity that differs from the male or female sex assigned to them at birth. Some transgender people get gender-affirming therapies to change their bodies to match their gender identity. Examples of gender-affirming therapies include surgery or taking hormones such as estrogen or testosterone.

The research team wanted to learn about health outcomes for transgender people. To do this, the team compared certain health measures among people who are transgender with the same measures among people who aren’t transgender. The study also looked at health outcomes for transgender people who did and didn’t receive gender-affirming therapies.

What were the results?
Mental health. Nearly all mental health conditions the research team looked at, such as depression, were more common among transgender people than people who aren’t transgender. Self-harm and thoughts about suicide were more common among transgender youth ages 10 to 17 years than nontransgender youth of the same age.
Cancers. Compared with men who aren’t transgender, transgender women had a lower risk of prostate cancer and a higher risk of cancers that arise from endocrine glands, such as thyroid cancer.
Blood clots and strokes. Transgender women who received estrogen had a higher risk of blood clots and strokes compared with men and women who aren’t transgender. Their risk for blood clots and strokes increased over time.
Body image. Transgender people who received more gender-affirming therapies reported that they felt better about how their bodies looked and how other people saw them compared with transgender people who received fewer or no therapies.
Who was in the study?
The research team looked at health records for 6,459 transgender people and 127,668 nontransgender people. All were members of three Kaiser Permanente health systems in Georgia and California. In addition, 697 transgender members took a survey.

What did the research team do?
Using health records for transgender and nontransgender people from three health systems over 10 years, the team compared the risk of blood clots or strokes. The team also looked at other health outcomes, such as cancer and mental health conditions.

The team sent a survey to transgender people whose health records showed that they had received gender-affirming therapies. The survey asked transgender people about the therapies they received. It also asked how they felt about the way their bodies looked after receiving any therapies.

A group of transgender people, advocates, doctors, and health system staff worked with the research team during the study.

What were the limits of the study?
This study looked at records from patients in three health systems in two states. Results may be different for patients in other health systems or for people without health insurance. The research team can’t say for sure that the risks for blood clots and strokes found among transgender patients in the study are a result of hormone therapy. Other health problems may have led to the blood clots and strokes.

Future research could look at other health benefits and risks of gender-affirming therapies for transgender patients.

How can people use the results?
These results can help transgender people who get gender-affirming therapies and their doctors be more aware of possible health problems, such as blood clots or strokes. Doctors may also want to ask transgender patients about possible mental health needs. Transgender women and their doctors may also want to be on the lookout for thyroid and some other cancers.

Themyscira · 12/11/2019 08:02

@ChilledBee did you deliberately misunderstand me, or are you really that dense? I'm baffled that adults can't see that groomed and abused children are slipping through the cracks via unproven and under-researched policies and procedures. (Not an opinion, tavistock has admitted to this)

JellySlice · 12/11/2019 08:02

Children don't have surgery. What are you talking about?

Legally, an 18yo is considered an adult (though even then not entirely, eg I think that an 18yo cannot adopt a child)

Medically, it is recognised that both brain and body do not reach physical maturity until early to mid 20s.

So, yes, surgery is being performed on people who are physically still children in many ways.