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Original poster

What makes a woman a woman?

106 replies

FierceMamaBear · 08/11/2019 20:03

Please discuss.
What makes a woman a woman?
What makes a man a man?

Is a girl who plays football any less of a girl?
Is a boy who plays princesses any less of a boy?
Is a woman who likes a pint at the pub less of a woman?
Is a man who drinks wine in a bubbly bath less of a man?

Is not the suggestion of feeling like a man/woman/boy/girl horrifically outdated and sexist? I felt like society was moving towards accepting of boys playing with fairies and girls playing with trucks, but now it seems very much against that.

Why is that literal human biology is being challenged and not gender stereotypes?

Am I the only one who finds cis offensive? I'm not a cis woman, I'm a woman. I find the term offensive. Women have been suppressed throughout history and to the present day. Women have worked hard to make woman a strong empowering word. I loved the always throw it like a girl campaign. Although, of course, no longer buy always.

Would love a discussion, my OH refuses to talk about it and all he'll say is their brain waves dont match up to their body Confused

OP posts:
TruthOnTrial · 09/11/2019 16:49

CIS has nothing to do with DSD, or trans. Discrete categories actually.

Disorders, genetically are not the same as the gender/sex debate.

CIS is not something women are.

NotTerfNorCis · 09/11/2019 16:43

Whenever I hear 'cis women' mentioned, it always seems to be with a sneer, like 'cis women' are simultaneously elitist and inferior.

Of course we don't need 'cis'. There's no such thing as a male woman. There are women and men, and men who identify as women, and women who identify as men.

bluebluezoo · 09/11/2019 16:41

Without getting into the sport argument, there’s been many a thread on here where Caster Semenya has been brought into the trans argument.

Many posters are insistent CS is male. Even using “him” and “he” in the discussion. Male chromosome = man.

Which is why I do think the DSD is somewhat relevant. I just wanted to clarify that there exceptions to the binary and we should not include them in the gender cis/trans definition.

Original poster
FierceMamaBear · 09/11/2019 16:37

@TheShoesa It is insane the speed it's progressed. In a blink of an eye, biology is being eradicated and what it means to be a woman is stripped from us. We're not even women, we're cis women apparently. Angry Many women are only just beginning to speak up, and often with caution and fear. The priority should've always been banning boys/girls toys etc, teaching in schools boys and girls can have whatever tastes and personalities they are. Ensuring children know this and ensure they know there are not conditions to them keeping their biology, it's with them. To me it's very clear gender stereotypes (which apparently no longer exists and is just gender) causes trauma.

OP posts:
Original poster
FierceMamaBear · 09/11/2019 16:31

If they want to get into an in-depth discussion about DSD, I agree a separate thread is appropriate. A lot of people have said biology, XX is what makes you a woman. In nearly every instance this is true, I also believe a non-functioning Y chromosome makes you a woman.

@TheShoesa I'm glad I'm not the only one! I'll watch the video once smalls are in bed and will be back with a comment on it! Grin

OP posts:
TheShoesa · 09/11/2019 16:30

It seems quite breathtaking the speed at which gender has taken precedence over sex in what it means to be a woman, although I have only joined the no debate relatively recently.

TruthOnTrial · 09/11/2019 16:24

How did anything become all about gender, its just unfathomable!

TheShoesa · 09/11/2019 16:23

I didn't comment on the second part of your OP. Regarding the term 'cis' I too find that offensive. I have heard it said that it should be used to differentiate biological women from transwomen, but I agree with JHB in

from about 8 minutes in. They were discussing prisons (another issue where sex not gender should be the deciding factor in my opinion) and her guest just would not have it that he was not welcome to use 'cis' on Julia's show

TruthOnTrial · 09/11/2019 16:14

DSD is a discussion of genetic disorders.

TruthOnTrial · 09/11/2019 16:13

I just think that DSD is a very complex and separate matter.

Having DSD isn't addressing what makes a woman a woman is it?

Your OP set clear parameters of biology and gender, sexism etc.

DSD has been discussed at length, in conflation with gender id, there are many threads which discuss it at length and in depth.

It is a different discussion to gender/sex.

BoneAppleTeaa · 09/11/2019 16:05

What makes a woman? Biology.

Original poster
FierceMamaBear · 09/11/2019 16:05

And how am I doing that exactly? My thread isn't about DSD, I'm well aware of that. I replied to a comment asking if we thought those with DSD were men. I answered a question that was perhaps semi In relation to my OP but was in relation too some of the comments on what makes you a woman. I'm not sure that counts as me detailing my thread, it's part of the discussion about what makes you a woman isn't it? it's a very rare occurrence and a biological reality, nothing like being trans.

OP posts:
TruthOnTrial · 09/11/2019 15:45

You're derailing the thread bear and making it about DSD, which its not.

DSD is genetic condition.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 09/11/2019 15:44

Being an adult female

It’s biology not a feeling, desire or delusion

Original poster
FierceMamaBear · 09/11/2019 15:38

Isn't the Y chromosome not functioning though? So they only have one functioning chromosome, which is X. I would class them as a woman, not a man, they do not have a functioning Y chromosome.

OP posts:
TruthOnTrial · 09/11/2019 15:33

I didnt think this thread was about DSD, and that was already stated.

Its not about DSD, and accusing pp of being mean to a particular situation, by the difference between sex and gender.

Thats very different to aligning oneself, or being conditioned lifelong into beibg one sex or the other.

If gender stereotypes were absent it wouldn't even exist

TheShoesa · 09/11/2019 15:33

DSD’s are a rare exception to the binary, and in those cases regardless of physical or genetic definitions, we should go with the person’s choice of which sex to align with

I agree

TheHumansAreDefinitelyDead · 09/11/2019 15:17

Bluebluezoo, but do you extrapolate from that that everyone who wants to be female should be allowed to choose that ?

Or just people with that specific genetic trait?

To me there is a world of difference

bluebluezoo · 09/11/2019 15:02

*From the NHS website AIS page - A child born with AIS is genetically male

So according to the above, a person with CAIS and a Y chromosome is a person who is male, but who has a DSD*

Genetically. Not physically. Not socially. Genetically I could be a whole heap of things you’d never know unless you are tested.

Tell that to a person who was born a girl, raised a girl, thought they were female, their parents, doctors, friends and family all knew they were female.

Until they hit 16 and go to the GP because their periods haven’t started. Genetic test shows XY.

You’re really going to insist that poor child is a man? Imagine it’s your dd. It’s a shit situation learning you’re infertile and may struggle to have sex. But yes dear, you have a y chromosome so you’re really a male.

DSD’s are a rare exception to the binary, and in those cases regardless of physical or genetic definitions, we should go with the person’s choice of which sex to align with.

Childrenofthestones · 09/11/2019 14:51

Well, I'm not one to boast.Smile

TruthOnTrial · 09/11/2019 14:48

I can see your scientific grounding shining through there Childrenofthestones Grin

Childrenofthestones · 09/11/2019 14:44

C'mon get with it.
A man has a baby and a woman has a penis.

TheShoesa · 09/11/2019 14:42

bluebluezoo

From the NHS website AIS page - A child born with AIS is genetically male

So according to the above, a person with CAIS and a Y chromosome is a person who is male, but who has a DSD

TheShoesa · 09/11/2019 14:27

FierceMamaBear I agree it seems backwards. Gender ideology is harmful, people should be free to be as masculine or feminine as they want, regardless of their sex.

Gender identity does not trump the biological reality of being male or female and it worries me that this seems to be becoming the case, especially when it comes to women's rights, single SEX spaces, and sports which should be separated when necessary on the reality of a person's BIOLOGICAL SEX regardless of how they feel or 'present' to the world at large.

I must be gender free because I refuse to conform to restrictive stereotypes imposed on me by society because of the sex that I am.

bluebluezoo · 09/11/2019 14:15

If you have a Y chromosome, you are male. If you do not have a Y chromosome, you are female

Exception being if you have a DSD. Someone with complete AIS Is not male solely because they have a Y chromosome.

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