Frack's reference post

'Options', but trialling DBT for co-morbid suicidality in GD adolescents is 'unethical'.

I see we've moved on from 'ROGD is debunked' to 'ROGD is irrelevant'. Neat.

I would still like to know how you account for the difference in the requirement for medical treatment for adult MTF trans and trans children.

Adult MTF trans generally don't have surgery, have gone through male puberty and may or may not take female hormones, the effects of which on them are entirely reversible. Trans children of both sexes are being put on puberty blockers which will have life-long consequences for them, may stop them every experiencing adult sexual development and are often put on the path to surgery - removal of the penis and testicles or the removal of breasts.

Why do you think children are seen as needing body altering hormones and surgery, whilst adult MTF trans aren't?

You made yourself the subject.

Indeed.

If you're too busy to respond you shouldn't start threads like this Frack. Your name is literally at the top of the post. It's not a discussion that can just carry on without you. You made yourself the subject.

People are very kindly asking questions which appear to highlight holes and gaps in your positions, but you're not having the courtesy to answer them.

but that doesn't resolve the problem of the idea that kids might not say anything until they feel safe.

Ah yes, the idea that children successfully mask their persistent, distressing and intractable gender dysphoria, displaying zero symptoms of such, for more than a decade.

Do you have children ? Do you spend time with them if you do ? Have you ever met a child who could mask - 24/7, 365 days a year, year after year, the kind of distress that requires blockers, cross-sex hormones and surgery ?

Do you think parents of kids with ROGD are stupid ? Do you think all ROGD kids live in families where the parents are threatening them if they deviate one iota from prescribed gender norms ? Do you not understand how dismissive and condescending you are to parents living with adolescents with sudden-onset GD ? The name describes what we see in front of our own eyes, yet here you come insisting that what we see has been 'debunked'.

smh

Frack

This thread is about your claim ROGD has been debunked. In that paper it states:

Because ROGD appears to be a new clinical phenomenon, we know very little about its subsequent developmental course, i.e., its “natural history.” For example, we know very little about rates of persistence versus desistance

The whole final page is about how we don’t know what we are actually dealing with. How do you square that with your claim ROGD has been debunked and this paper supports your view?

You’re being so disingenuous now it’s quite ridiculous.

"See Trans Kids thread for arguments around these ideas"

You need to answer the question on the thread where the discussion is taking place and make your arguments here. You can't wave people off to look for your arguments (which may not even be there) within a sea of posts.

You posted academic research so clearly you hold academia in high regards. In academia you have to deal with questions from your peers directly, you can't wave them away like you're trying to do here.

No you're misrepresenting that paper again.

Anyway, having now read the Zucker paper inside out and back to front I'm a bit bored of it.

I'd rather hear what you think. I'd rather you answered the questions people have asked you.

The idea that anyone would not be open to holes in their arguments is frankly quite disturbing.

We're quite used to seeing people with that attitude on here. The answers to the questions you've been asked are usually met with shouts of 'transphobe' and 'bigot' swiftly followed by a flounce.

So it's good to see that you're not going to follow the well-trodden path and that you'll come back and answer our questions later.

So that's worth looking at if you are interested in the arguments.

We're not interested in what other people think, Frack. We want to know what you think. Referring us to another thread in which you made an assertion that got thoroughly debunked isn't telling us what you think.

Why are you supporting puberty blockers in minors but coming out against surgical intervention in adults? Why do you think MTF surgery an iteration of patriarchal imposition by surgeons but remain silent on FTM surgery?

Please answer the questions.

I might start refusing to answer DD's 1000 questions a day and just waving in the direction of some academic papers. It'd save me a lot of time.

ROGD, or sudden-onset adolescent gender dysphoria, can't be debunked, really, because it's just a description - the sudden emergence and expression of gender dysphoria in teens already in or through puberty.

Indeed. You cannot debunk the fact this is happening and that it is a new phenomena. That the number of adolescents with GD has shot up thousands of percentage points in a few years. That the sex balance has within a few years switched from mostly boys to mostly girls. That clusters of GD have emerged in friendship groups and some schools when others see no such thing. That similar patterns have not emerged among adult women.

This is text book social contagion.

You may not be aware of this Frack, but in academia it is common practice for your arguments to be examined and questioned by an audience of your peers. You’re linking to peer-reviewed academic articles which present research, arguments and conclusions which can then be tested and scrutinised. A refusal or inability to answer questions in that sphere would not be seen as a positive. Mumsnet is not dissimilar in that regard.

It's the bit of the narrative never explored by TRAs. Why does gender dysphoria happen?

ROGD, or sudden-onset adolescent gender dysphoria, can't be debunked, really, because it's just a description - the sudden emergence and expression of gender dysphoria in teens already in or through puberty.

Exactly.

It's there, it's observable, it's happening.

ROGD, or sudden-onset adolescent gender dysphoria, can't be debunked, really, because it's just a description - the sudden emergence and expression of gender dysphoria in teens already in or through puberty.

The only way to debunk it is to call (the mostly but not only female) parents and therapists who notice and describe this phenomenon 'liars' and 'transphobes'.

Which isn't exactly, ya know, scientific, and is a wee bit sexist when it comes to mums. Smacks of 'mums are stupid and/or old and don't know about acceptance and stuff.' Which is clearly bullshit.

Come back Frack and answer the questions.....

It makes you look as if you have no answers if you show up on the thread again but still ignore them.

That is how your position is tested, strengthened and refined, by dealing with the most difficult questions, which point out areas you haven’t thought of or haven’t addressed properly.

We’re doing half the work for you by asking you these, if you really are serious about testing your arguments, shouldn’t you be at least making some attempt to formulate responses.

^The whole point of this thread was for you to fill in the hole in the argument that ROGD has been debunked.
^^
^You haven’t filled the hole, merely dug it deeper and wider.

THIS

Frack.

Here's a handy explanation.

Sex: this is knowing which one/both/neither in an adult couple has the potential to produce large gametes and carry and give birth to a child.

Gender: is feeling uncomfortable that your male child wants to do ballet or your female child wants to play football.

That's it. We should be breaking down the barriers of boys and ballet/girls and football - not trying to remove the genitals of the kids that want to do something their same sex friends don't.

If Marci Bowers, a trans woman, is pushing male patriarchal ideas in their surgery, does that mean despite transitioning males still retain their ingrained patriarchal beliefs about the world?

Also, the idea that a child should be allowed access to such surgery without psychological assessment is so utterly abhorrent I just can’t even comprehend.

And Susie Green of Mermaids endorses this.

Marci Bowers, yes, who pushed for children to be able to have genital surgery at any age if they were deemed competent to understand the implications.

So, Frack - you have said that you feel the pushing of surgical intervention is male patriarchal when it comes to MTF surgery, including when it's Marci Bowers doing it. Yes? That's what you said?

Even though you are unable to answer as to why the pushing of MTF surgery is male patriarchal but the pushing of puberty blockers is not - is pushing FTM surgeries (eg mastectomies and hysterectomies) also male patriarchal? Or is just the pushing of surgery onto XY trans persons you're objecting to? And you're not really that fussed what happens to XX trans people?

By the way, I don't feel like I've had my arse handed to me at all.

LOLs.