Frack's reference post

Blockers have been in use for years for other conditions, so would have gone through double blind trials before becoming available

You actually just typed that, didn't you?

The idea of doing a double blind trial on existing trans kids isn't ethical

That’s actually disgusting and completely discredits the whole ‘study’.

Highly rated by Frack, possibly. By either scientists as a whole or the general public, nope.

The journals are actually quite highly rated

🤣

They are niche publications, barely registering an impact factor, and incidentally all published by Taylor and Francis. Do you work for them OP? Are you trying to drive traffic to your weak journals?

Or is there some kind of extra medical problem that arises as a result?

Yes, I think so but would have to check what.

That’s brilliant Frack. It’s very helpful if you to link to those ‘studies’, so the rest of us can see just how wrong it is to experiment on those poor children. It has shown us that we’re doing exactly the right thing in trying to make people aware that children need protection from these quacks.

Yes it would be useful to know what would happen if blockers weren't given to children with precocious puberty.

I had my first period when I was about 8-9. Thankfully I wasn't given anything and allowed to just get on with it. The sex and reproductive education was totally absent so I initially thought I was dying lol.

Does anyone know what happens if you don't use puberty blockers for precocious puberty? Does it mean the person develops at too young an age, and therefore looks strange in comparison to their peers. And they have to deal with it things like menstruation?

Or is there some kind of extra medical problem that arises as a result?

Thanks for posting the studies, Frack. I don't have a uni log in so can't access the full texts. Thanks to the other posters who have summarised key points from the studies, that's really helpful.

Are these studies the basis for using puberty blockers to treat children with gender dysphoria?

www.revealnews.org/article/women-say-drug-used-to-halt-puberty-has-ruined-their-lives/

Sharissa Derricott took Lupron from age 5 to 12 to shut down early puberty. At 30, she’s among the first patients who took the drug – even before it was approved for pediatric use. She says now that she’s had more surgeries than her 79-year-old father and suffers from a blood disorder and bone and joint problems.

“Excuse my language, but it’s hell,” she said.

Sharissa Derricott, 30, prepares her afternoon medication at her parents’ home in Lawton, Okla. After taking Lupron from age 5 to 12 to shut down early puberty, she’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

“It just feels like I’m being punished for basically being experimented on when I was a child,” said Derricott, of Lawton, Oklahoma. “I’d hate for a child to be put on Lupron, get to my age and go through the things I have been through.”

I dunno Jane, only @FrackOff can tell us whether or not they endorse homosexual conversion therapy

It would be good if you'd clarify though Frack, because it's hard not to draw that conclusion from the studies you've uncritically posted, and you evidently feel you're a good person, so how are you squaring that particular circle?

I expect Frack is washing their hair doing some super important work

OK, so before my head explodes, can someone correct me if I'm wrong?

I seem to have read in this thread that one of these papers, posted as evidence to debunk adolescent onset gender dysphoria, describes a homosexual boy being socially and medically transitioned because he was dealing with both internal and external homophobia.

And this was presented without a disclaimer from the OP that she does not endorse conversion therapy of gay and lesbian teens ? And was presented as a positive outcome ?

I'm asking, because I can't believe I read that, so I must have gotten it wrong. Please correct my misapprehensions, someone!

Hey Frack, if you want to convince me of the errors of my watchful waiting ways, you are going to have to do better than this. For starters, I want research that strongly and significantly suggests that age of onset of GD is irrelevant to persistence and intractability.

I'd also like to see subjects with onset of GD post puberty randomly assigned to a study of mental health outcomes (including self-harm and suicidality) re social affirmation vs 12 months of individual and group DBT.

That's just for starters. That's to get me even interested in your claim that 'ROGD is debunked'.

If you can link to method, results and discussion sections of the literature writing up these studies (or very similar) so that working class women can access the papers properly without having insititutional log-in privilege, that would be super kind.

Second study just looks at what factors were associated with a clinicians decision to prescribe blockers.

Oh look:
The recommendation for blockers was also reliably associated with... a homosexual sexual orientation

I'm not a medic or a researcher, but what is academic about asking a small group of teens how they feel about the medication they went on that left them vulnerable to stress fractures etc. but meant that they could possibly convince a little better externally as the opposite sex? Surely that is a facile question in this context? What about long term studies?
Frack, why would you find this a convincing reason to so confidently discount ROGD and pour scorn on any need for further research? If you are an academic and 'pro-trans', as others have repeatedly asked you, why are you so blinkeredly opposed to top quality, well funded, thorough and exhaustive research on the effects, long terms of these treatments, and underlying reasons for the presentation of the symptoms in the first place? Why do you care so little for the welfare of these young people? Are they just totems for you?

4: 'Thirty-five trans and gender diverse young people aged 9 to 17 years were recruited to participate in semi-structured interviews through the specialty clinics where they had received or were waiting for gender-affirming medical interventions such as puberty blockers, hormone therapy, and surgery.'

Result: They were happy with a gender-affirming approach and did not regret the interventions.

At 17?

In the fourth study they interviewed 35 children age 9-17, spread across 3 'gender affirming' clinics. The children were asked how they felt about their care and what they wanted out of transition. That's it. That's the study.

We don't know how many of these 35 children had started on blockers because the study is just so fucking qualitative but out of this small group:

• One child on blockers developed numerous stress fractures

I guess the only side effects that I’ve had is that just a couple of weeks ago I guess I found out that my stress fractures were related to the Lupron and I wouldn’t go back and change it because I needed to be on Lupron but I mean it was frustrating just not knowing for a while why I had four stress fractures. I was doing less activities but I guess I found out that actually, having done a lot of activity and then getting injured and going on Lupron not doing much activity, actually contributed then to getting the stress fractures. That’s the only downside I’ve had from Lupron. (Steve, TM, 14 years old)

• One child on blockers made a serious suicide attempt

But I think it’s important to mention that in 2017 I had a serious suicide attempt where I went to the hospital. That was one of my darker periods of my life. Even though I was beginning my medical transition [started in December 2016], estrogen blockers are known for being a little bit wacky on your emotions. I was already in a pretty, not that great place mentally for the past since 2015 at that point. So it was kind of just like a, thank you, a rollercoaster of everything going on. Simulated menopause was not the best thing at that time […] High school was a big jumbled mess, it was a bit of a weird time. I don't know. I was going through some stuff with my friends as well, and my grades are slipping, and everything was slipping. I was sleeping 16 hours, so excessive napping. It was a really big, a really big depressive episode, I'd say. (Jason, TM NB, 17 yo)

• One child on blockers describes vomiting and hot flushes

I get sick randomly now, I just start throwing up, cause of the hot flashes, so I' m like “This is fantastic.” […] Never in a million years would I consider stopping [blockers], this is better for me. (Lyndon, TM, 15 yo)

But overall the children feel positive about the blockers and that's what the study is about so it was all OK in the end.

Am I a bad person for quite enjoying it when someone appears on MN with a sense of superiority and thinking we will bow down before their 'brilliance' - only to have their arse handed to them by the actually knowledgeable and brilliant fwr regulars?

We hypothesized that the combination of internalized, familial, and cultural-religious homophobia was a contributing factor in Wayne’s gender dysphoria, since living in the female gender role would “normalize” his sexual orientation.
Jesus christ. On another thread today there was an article with a ftm who decided to be trans when her girlfriends homophobic father told her if she likes girls she should be a boy.

Yes 2011 is far too early to have anything to say about ROGD. The paper discusses prescribing patterns between 2000 and 2009 - which kids get the blockers and which ones don't.

Here's a chart of annual referrals to GIDS. Look where we were in 2009. How on earth is this paper relevant to any discussion of ROGD?

ah, so you'll only engage with people with a university login who could read the whole articles

Really..l need a university login?

Oh

Pencils comment about the third paper is all that needs to be said.

Full text of the fourth paper.

Introduction
Across Canada over the past 5 years, we have observed an increase in the number of referrals of young people to specialty clinics offering gender-affirming care, mirroring trends in other countries. Transitions, whether they be social, medical or legal, can help alleviate gender dysphoria and decrease suicide ideations and attempts and are supported by gender-affirming models of care. Conversely, barriers to accessing transition related care can lead to increased anxiety, suicidal ideation, and to the disaffirmation of a person’s gender identity.

Instead of all this gender-affirmation, why aren't they doing research into why so many children and young people think they need to have their bodies modified to resemble those of the opposite sex?

Full text of the Zucker paper from 2011

It's quite old, so doesn't really the current wave of ROGD. It does describe how two gay children have been 'cured' of their homosexuality by transition.

We hypothesized that the combination of internalized, familial, and cultural-religious homophobia was a contributing factor in Wayne’s gender dysphoria, since living in the female gender role would “normalize” his sexual orientation. We recommended hormonal therapy to suppress Wayne’s somatic masculinization and also saw him in supportive psychotherapy.