Frack's reference post

I can't think of any other type of person who sets reading lists and then demands others uncover the arguments for both sides, rather than engaging properly in the discussion themselves.

It seems to be a popular TRA tactic on here. Over the last couple of years I've interacted with a few posters doing this. There are often 'favourite' papers which crop up again and again as 'proof' of something (when they're nothing of the sort). The Endocrine Society position statement was one of those a year or two ago (someone posted it on here again recently). I assume someone posts something on twitter saying it's important and that it 'proves' something and then they all pounce on it.

Frack's reading list was at least different - I hadn't seen those particular papers before. But I notice Frack hasn't come back to tell us why these particular papers are so important in their view.

I'm sure I recall that during the Jazz episode when the procedure was done, the surgeon said something along the lines of how generally after surgery something akin to a female orgasm can be attained.

This is so obviously misleading that it would be laughable if it wasn't so horrifying, and is exactly why we need to keep talking about it.

We certainly shouldn't let prudishness get in the way of stoping people being misled. We are all grown women who know what a female orgasm is like.

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

Jazz Jennings is a male born individual who has had their testicles removed, and because their children's penis is too small, has had a neo vagina fashioned from the lining of their stomach.

A 'teenage girls orgasm', is impossible for jazz. Firstly because they are not the right sex, and secondly because they have no genitalia to make it happen.

This is what you advocate for. When you advocate for puberty blockers, this is the direct result.

Jazz and their family are making millions of dollars by talking about this in great detail from one end of the media to the other.

You going all coy about the orgasm of a teenage girl is, under those circumstances, both deceitful and manipulative.

And, (and I don't know why you don't see this) unutterably transparent.

Jazz will never enjoy an effective adult sex life, has been deprived forever of the intimacy it provides, and has been commercialised on the back of it. Something you have gone to great pains to support.

Yes, gross.

Western academia is white supremacist and male supremacist Sadly most people succeeding in it currently are those who are prepared to uphold those values and indoctrinate their students into them.

OK, I had my posts being specific deleted.

I do think I was mistaken that Frack is a Mermaids volunteer. This looks a lot like a university reading list that we're being set as students to work through and then report back to Frack our opinions so she can mark us on whether we've toed the party line. I can't think of any other type of person who sets reading lists and then demands others uncover the arguments for both sides, rather than engaging properly in the discussion themselves.

Having said that, amusing though it is (specially the vanity posting), given that Frack explicitly said on another thread that they were worried about being identified, it might be as well to get the last few posts speculating about her identity deleted at poster's request. I'll do that with mine.

Can anyone see how long the follow up is on the Lynch et al paper (number 3 above)?

This is a remarkable and helpful thread. Thanks all! Especially Frack

Gurl

I rarely post, but almost always read and just want to applaud the fabulous posters on FWR for this marvellous, well argued discussion.

Many thanks, OP, for enabling a wonderful example of the best of FWR. I am sure this hasn’t turned out as you intended!

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

This puritanical streak tends to come out when a really important point has been made. See also "eeeuuw, you're all obsessed with genitals"

the vast body of international data, including longterm retrospective data, points firmly towards affirmative care as the approach with the best ourcomes for children's mental health.

This statement is made CONSTANTLY but never supported with peer reviewed research on dysphoric kids. Somehow we are supposed to just believe it and therefore such studies are not only unnecessary but actually UNETHICAL because we’ve already decided that “affirmation only” is better for literally everyone.

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

Nobody is discussing any such thing. Jazz Jenning's cannot orgasm. We know this because Jazz Jenning's parents and doctors saw fit to encourage Jazz to discuss the matter on TV for the world to see. This was indeed deeply unethical. Not only because discussing a child's intimate medical procedures for public entertainment is unethical but because Jazz clearly does not understand that such conversations are not generally considered appropriate. This is partly due to Jazz being brought up in the media glare but quite likely also related to a disruption of normal brain development rendering Jazz unable to understand social niceties on a level that would normally be expected from a 17/18/19 year old.

Also Jazz even if the medical experiment had gone well Jazz would never experience the 'orgasms of a teenage girl'. Jazz is the wrong sex to ever experience female orgasms and should have had this explained clearly to Jazz all along.

Brilliant post Nonny

FrackOff
People have been engaging here all day about a range of items from your references. You called the thread Fracks references and now you don't want to people to discuss them. And now your trying to what? Say we are all, what's the term, "genital fetishists". Good try but we see you.

Actually, I lied. We can't talk about such things, because that would reveal truth.

There's nothing gross in talking about powerful and poorly researched medication that affects children's bone development, renders them infertile and incapable of experiencing orgasms.

Have we reversed to some prudish Victorian era where talking about factual issues related to sexual development causes fainting spells among people with delicate sensibilities?!

The ability to experience orgasms is a natural part of reaching sexual maturity and developing into an adult. It is also a way human beings bond with sexual partners by providing mutual affection and pleasure. Orgasms help release chemicals known to induce bonding, relaxation and happiness - one of the various ways humans form long-term loving and romantic relationships.

You think talking about children being denied a normal sexual development that will enable them to forge healthy and mutually pleasurable relationships as adults is gross?!?

There is a reason why adults who transition are usually reluctant to amputate their genitals. They understand the value of sexual intimacy and the joy that orgasms bring to themselves as well their relationships.

Children have no frame of reference as to how important orgasms can be to sexual fulfillment and intimacy in relationships. What happens when they reach adulthood and find difficulty in enjoying the closeness that sex brings? The vast majority of people do not want a relationship with a partner who is incapable of experiencing and appreciating orgasms. People enjoy mutual pleasure and fulfillment and struggle when this isn't the case. You only have to read the experiences of those who aren't trans but who find it hard to orgasm to understand how it can affect a couple's sex life.

The sort of person who doesn't care if their partner has an orgasm is not the sort of person you'd want to be with in a relationship anyway!

Do you need smelling salts after reading this?

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

Oh, give over.

Frack: here's why puberty blockers are fine and dandy.

Feminists: one of our main concerns is that the treatment pathway for minors beginning with puberty blockers renders them unable to orgasm as adults.

Frack: that's gross, unethical and triggering.

Feminists: yes, Frack, that's what we're saying.

Frack: no, not children being rendered anorgasmic as adults: saying it out loud.

Feminists: hi lurkers!

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

So removing the ability to orgasm from children too young to understand what is being done to them is OK, but talking about it isn't. Is that what you're saying Frack?

Your insistence on NOT talking about a teenager's (19 year old) natural feelings and bodily functions seems puritanical, especially given the extreme subject matter.

There's worse, MUCH worse we could talk about here and we've all seen the graphic images of what this surgery entails - especially for ftm.

I'm against Fracking.