Frack's reference post

*Slow things down
*
I'm not in your position Janes but it makes perfect sense. Someone sensible said to me it's like driving and leaving space between you and the car in front to give yourself time to react. Kids need time to adjust to most changing situations I will never understand why someone would rush them on any issue frankly.

Your posts are really insightful, thank you for sharing.

NotBad, that’s roughly what I wanted to ask but you’ve put it far better.

I find this really hard to understand Frack.

If you find discussing the trauma inflicted upon Jazz too close to your own trauma, why do you advocate for a medical pathway that inflicts that trauma?

If you don’t want to discuss the trauma inflicted on children by the medical pathway of affirmative care, why do you post repeatedly on the Trans Kids thread and then start your own thread about the medical pathway, the end result of which is the trauma inflicted on Jazz that you find triggering? It’s inevitable the discussion will end up at that point because that’s the end result of the medical pathway.

Great posts Janes thank you for your contributions. Glad to hear your child is doing better.

That term makes for extra amusement when aimed at, say, Glinner. If they start calling Piers Morgan a T*RF they may peak trans the entire nation!

Yes, but in a rare burst of optimism, can I point out that all this blatant cribbing and reversal is, most obviously, an admission that we have absolutely made the case.

If all you can do in response to feminist arguments is DARVO them, you've basically held your hands up in defeat on the merits of your own positions.

It's like the T*RF insult - the only reason that is a thing is because they bloody know full well that Feminist arguments are the ones which expose their regressive misogyny and homophobia, so they had to work in the term 'radical feminist' as a pejorative to try and shut down the awkward women who know what reality is and ask questions. They would have just stick with bigot, nazi and transphobe otherwise.

I'm sure I recall that during the Jazz episode when the procedure was done, the surgeon said something along the lines of how generally after surgery something akin to a female orgasm can be attained.

The surgeon being Marci Bowers - a trans woman.

It's exactly the same tactic they use when we say we don't want men to be able to pay to rape women in prostitution. They claim we exclude or even hate women in prostitution. It's a lie and a reversal.

That comment is chilling in how well thought out the strategies for shutting down women's concerns are. Worried about Jazz? You'll be accused of wanting to harm Jazz.

Anyone new to this should probably have a think about what kind of people would want to make it impossible for a group of mostly middle aged women to express concern for the wellbeing of teenagers. And related to that, consider which group of people are in general most concerned with protecting teenagers from harm. If that group are no longer able to intervene when a teenager is at risk then who does that benefit?

Not only will I never shut up about this topic, it's the proponents of transing children who got me speaking in the first place.

When my daughter was first diagnosed, I went to a parent support group - and no-one there could answer any of my reasonable questions. In fact, asking questions was frowned upon. The information provided to explain why our children were trans and needed medical treatment asap was about a 6th grade reading level. No citations, no directions to further info.

Now, I know groups where you should shut up and take what you're given are unhealthy. So I left that group and did my own reading, and answered my own questions.

My conclusions ? This is an era of homophobic, ableist and sexist experimentation on childen and teens. Something Frack's posts haven't exactly challenged.

Slow things down, was another piece of invaluable advice I received from a social worker.

So long as your child has support for co-morbid issues, there is no need to rush on the gender issues.

We know, via developmental psychology, that identity is in flux during adolescence - it makes sense to make space during the teen years for identity to shift and change over time.

Don't foreclose on your teen's identity by rushing to cement one particular identity.

The worst of it is, it hasn't made us shut up.

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

I know this comment on first read makes everyone want to let their eyes roll into the back of their heads, but actually it's utterly chilling. And manipulative. And deceitful.

The inference here is that we are all perverted for thinking about a teenager's ability (or lack thereof) to orgasm. Implying that we have an unnatural interest in this teenager's sex life. But that's just a smoke screen designed to silence and discredit us, so that you can get on with the business of advocating for children to be given unsafe drugs, have genital surgery, be rendered infertile and anorgasmic, irreversibly. For the rest of their lives. You, as an adult, advocate for all of this to be done to children and yet you have the absolute gall to imply that any of us have inappropriate intentions?

feed the dis,orphia thanks..I do think that's what is often happening

That's a brilliant post, Janes.

JanesKettle excellent, sound suggestions. I completely concur.

Is the something aligning in the stars tonight or some other woo weirdness? Some truly brilliant posts on FWR right now. (No, Frack, didnae mean you)

That's one interpretation Kittens, mine was less charitable and involved AGP.

There is no secret, amazing study.

Nope. The research is not rigourous, nor up to date enough, to suggest that we should be starting our minor children on medical treatment for gender dysphoria.

My suggestion, to lurkers, mum to mum, is that you should take the feelings seriously - they are real, even if the thought driving the feelings isnt.

You should find your child reputable psychological assistance to have co-morbid issues treated.

You should encourage and support gender non-conformity and possible same-sex or bisexual orientations in your child.

You should not feed the dysphoria, either with affirmation or with negativity, and you should encourage your child to focus on hobbies and experiences that have nothing to do with gender.

Hold your line, which is 'safety' and 'keeping options open till adulthood'. Normalise the struggle many of us have with aspects of gender and our physical, sexed selves.

Seek out DBT if your child is suicidal.

These are all, btw, suggestions that have come from psychologists, psychiatrists and social workers with long experience in adolescent mental health.

I'm sure I recall that during the Jazz episode when the procedure was done, the surgeon said something along the lines of how generally after surgery something akin to a female orgasm can be attained.

In addition to all the other obvious issues this is so comically "misogynists don't understand where the clitoris is or how it works" that I'm rolling my eyes.

Still waiting for evidence that outcomes are the same regardless of whether age on onset is pre or post puberty.

Your mother-blaming postion, Frack, that all adolescent-onset GD teens were just too scared at the age of 3, 5 or 8 to come out, is one of the more sexist things I've read anywhere. Mothers quite often know their children very well, spend an awful amount of time with them, and are in a very good position to describe childhood mental health and behaviours.

So far, all I've found out in this thread is that kids are being transitioned because of homophobia, and adolescent onset GD isn't real because parents are transphobes. Really fucking unconvincing.

Nothing to show why a model of social contagion should be debunked either.

Gonna keep on keeping on with my watchful waiting thanks very much. And making my own observations, such as 'transmasc kid had 4 hospitalizations for suicidality at the height of her gender dysphoria, but has been stable with no sucidality and no hospitalizations with group and individual DBT, and a more flexible approach to gender non-conformity plus self acceptance of sexuality.'

This thread is exactly what is so infuriating about this whole debate. We would love some real studies to discuss. We beg for non-circular, non-nonsensical definitions so we can actually have a discussion. Women here took time out of their lives to read (what they could) of your links and, surprise surprise, it's just more of the same bullshit - all smoke and no substance.

You want to force us to celebrate mutilating and sterilizing minors - Our babies! - and this is the level of your discourse? It's insulting.

For the lurkers - it always goes this way. Without exception. There is no secret, amazing study. It literally does boil down to a giant toddler tantrum, 'I want! You're mean!'

Yes, well spotted Tinsel
This puritanical streak tends to come out when a really important point has been made. See also "eeeuuw, you're all obsessed with genitals"

I don't recall any such hand wringing when such conversations were wrested from Jazz and broadcast on tv? Jazz had no problem posting Instagram pictures with penis cakes and dildos (iirc). We only know about the condition of Jazz' genitalia because they filmed and broadcast it! TRAs seem to do nothing but overshare about every detail of their sex life (fantasy or real)

It's only gross when the old mummies talk about sex. Our job is not to think or have an opinion. We are supposed to just vacantly, beatifically smile while we lay down under the crazy train...

I assume someone posts something on twitter saying it's important and that it 'proves' something and then they all pounce on it.

Frack's reading list was at least different - I hadn't seen those particular papers before. But I notice Frack hasn't come back to tell us why these particular papers are so important in their view.

Yes that's the point - if you want to convince people you have to engage with them and their arguments.

Probably too busy reading all those secret supporters messages and checking to see if she's left a checkable trail if she's ever shared an academic article she shouldn't now she's been told it's not actually allowed.