The problem with white feminism

And by continuing to say that ‘things are different in America’, insinuating that race is not a big problem here, you are undermining the voices of women who are telling you that, yes, it is a problem here

My town has a large immigrant community. Members of that community were openly discriminated against in jobs and housing within living memory. Members of that community are routinely subjected to jibes about their intelligence. They are subjected to football fans singing about being 'up to their knees in their blood'. Dozens of them who I know personally have been physically assaulted for their ethnicity. Organised marches come to my town every year just to wind them up. The marchers have no particular historic connection with my town, there is no reason for them to come here rather than the larger town next door beyond shit stirring. High profile members of this community are often subjected to death threats online, if they are really 'lucky' they have been known to be sent bullets through the post. Less than 200 years ago they were being starved out of their lands by colonialists. It is less than 100 years since their homeland gained independence from its colonial masters. Part of it remains in dispute and a long running campaign of political violence which has cost over 3000 lives still hasn't entirely ended.

Yes things are different here to the USA. Have you any idea how insulting it is to tell Irish women living in the UK that their feminism is some kind of 'product of colonialism' just because they have white skin?

No I am not blaming all white women. I am saying that many women of colour have expressed disappointment that often their perspective is overlooked. One major example is where GC movements or prominent people in them decide to partner with people who wish harm on people of colour and when a lot (not all) GC women on forums like this tell them to suck up their concerns for the greater good. That has happened and is happening. It doesn’t matter that absolutely everyone isn’t doing it. Enough people are doing it for it to be a problem. Saying things like ‘x doesn’t speak for all of us and can do what she wants’ when you know that x is a very prominent figure is unhelpful. Calling it out and saying ‘x is wrong to do this, she doesn’t speak for me’ would at least offer reassurance.

Nope nope and ‘not all men’ right? Refuse to acknowledge the problem by individualising it

Be specific! What problem? I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. But you seen to want to make all white women responsible for what one does.

Personally never refer to " all men"; even if some do. In fact, I have profound problem with such sweeping generalisations.

I should say I won't be deterred from sharing MY view. I can't speak for others

And by continuing to say that ‘things are different in America’, insinuating that race is not a big problem here, you are undermining the voices of women who are telling you that, yes, it is a problem here

The truth is, whatever anyone here says - as long as it is not totally subservient to your word, you will find fault and make accusation.

Frankly, though, women won't be intimidated from speaking their experience, or sharing my view. What else can they do?

Rather than accuse on generalised principles - start a specific conversation, around a specific issue, and then explain what support you feel needs to be offered. You cannot expect total compliance, though, or no discussion or debate.

Nope nope and ‘not all men’ right? Refuse to acknowledge the problem by individualising it.

I am talking about GC women saying that the important thing is spreading the message and it doesn’t matter if we collaborate with people who promote racial segregation and refuse to condemn people who do this

GC women come from all backgrounds, ethnicities and belief systems. We are not one lumpen mass. On some level we all have to take individual responsibility for ourselves. I'm not responsible for what you say or do.

And by continuing to say that ‘things are different in America’, insinuating that race is not a big problem here, you are undermining the voices of women who are telling you that, yes, it is a problem here.

Another thing is that when you are discussing things like eh hijab, be guided by feminist women from that community who have experience of it. Let them lead the conversation

Well, step forward then and discuss it........nobody is preventing that. But also, I don't think it valid to expect people to bow & scrape and not have views of their own just because they are not from that community themselves.

Just nobody is saying that at all and no WOC are saying we should link up with dictators of other races either. I am talking about GC women saying that the important thing is spreading the message and it doesn’t matter if we collaborate with people who promote racial segregation and refuse to condemn people who do this.

*I think the clearest thing is when women of colour or LGBT women explain their extreme discomfort at associating with right wing groups with racist homophobic ideologies8

Of course, there are no dictators, racists or homophobes in any black or ethnic groups, are there? They are all white......

The sense I'm increasingly getting here...is that so much of the American experience is being re-framed here

One thing that can be done is having clear boundaries and principles about who we collaborate with with some people being absolutely off limits, no exceptions. Those people include white suprematists.

Another thing is that when you are discussing things like eh hijab, be guided by feminist women from that community who have experience of it. Let them lead the conversation.

Also it’s when women of colour are actually telling you what the problem is and that they perceive it to be a problem and you are outright dismissing it.

Nobody is dismissing anything.....

But what do you expect people to do? Feminists campaign and share cause with other women, regardless of the their background, but as feminists they recognise the aspects of oppression which relate to being female first and foremost - and unite around that.

Reading some of the above posts it would seem that people cannot do right for doing wrong. They cannot empathise with friends, or recognise the specific cultural aspects of their friend's/sister's oppression - simply because they are white and indulging in privilege.

I think the clearest thing is when women of colour or LGBT women explain their extreme discomfort at associating with right wing groups with racist homophobic ideologies. Maybe not from people on here personally but I have seen many many instances on here where those concerns are dismissed as being ‘divisive’ and that we should fight for the ‘common good’.

Also it’s when women of colour are actually telling you what the problem is and that they perceive it to be a problem and you are outright dismissing it. That sort of thing. It’s no different from men dismissing women’s arguments that sexism still exists and telling them to focus on ‘real issues’.

white feminism is when white women claim to be feminists and then describe the experiences of women who have different life experiences from them as niche subjects

It wasn't 'niche' when I had to support my young Sikh friend when she ran away, having refused to marry her parent's choice of husband, and her father came into college trying to find her - with threats to kill himself.....or when she finally agreed to a match and yet I couldn't be invited to the wedding because I was a single parent - which was shameful.....or any number of other incidents and occurrences over the years.

I'm sure I've experienced deprivations and difficult situations aplenty that you have not faced yourself.....I'll not go into them here because I don't see that is necessary. This isn't the oppression Olympics.

Yet you seem to want to seek some uniquely special oppression and demand that everyone tread on egg shells around you and defer to your every word on account of it.

It's also the moments when sisters need to get together for this thing I'm interested in.....we'll do your thing later and later never comes

And what is 'your thing', exactly?

We all have multiple levels of experience and condition - regardless of sex, race, nationality, ethnicity, religion......

Feminism is about women uniting on the basis of sex, and the conditions and things they have in common on account of their sex.

It is easy to find common cause with other women, wherever they may be, whatever their social background. the shared conditions of womanhood are the same pretty much the world over.

If we all refused to have empathy with, or work with women from different cultures or backgrounds we wouldn't get very far. I think some women end up 'choosing' to see their social class or their ethnic background as their most defining feature or prominent identity - and in doing that they find division with other women - and cannot see common cause.

Can someone please point me to the feminst issues which affect black women which don't affect white women, or vice versa?

I think you would struggle to find an issue that never effects white women at all, other than perhaps FGM as suggested.

There are issues that are much more likely to effect particular minority groups but often those do not effect all groups equally. A muslim woman of Pakistani descent may face abuse due to her wearing clothes that are atypical for the majority culture in a way a christian women of Kenyan heritage does not. A woman of West Indian background may face abuse regarding her body type in a way a woman of Chinese origins does not. A girl from the traveller community might be struggling to access education in a way a girl of Indian heritage isn't.

The intersection of sex and ethnicity is complex. Even with regard to FGM there is absolutely no benefit in dividing women into 'white' and 'WoC'. Many members of the 'WoC' group would not be at risk of FGM. It is far too simplistic a division to be useful on a practical level.

White feminism is when white women claim to be feminists and then describe the experiences of women who have different life experiences from them as niche subjects

i'm not 'claiming' to be anything......This sort of dismissive attitude is divisive and hostile and is part of the problem. You are wilfully claiming separation and difference rather seeking unity of cause.

What you are doing is actually what you accuse me of. you are saying that just because I've told you I'm whit, that means I''m automatically an oppressor of black women. Classic reversal. I'm now the 'niche' subject. What you are saying is actually racist in itself. you are maintaining separation and division and denying that women can have empathy and common cause with each other if from different backgrounds.

We all have different life experiences from each other. We are are born into different family cultures and traditions; into different geographical cultures and traditions; we each have individual personalities......What unites us is that we are women living in a male dominated society, which values women less than men.

It’s a bit of Gordian Knot, people fall over themselves to avoid accusations of racism. An accusation that wouldn’t hold power if people didn’t aspire to be tolerant and not racist.

White feminists are boxed in, as if by focusing on a problem facing other ethnicities there are accusations of white saviour complexes, but not doing so and you are at best an unconscious racist, at worst a conscious one.

Take an issue like immigration, it should probably be a feminist issue that the overwhelming number of migrants are men. Surely we should be aiming for a 50/50 split by sex? but try even touching that issue as a white person without stepping on a racial landmine.

Yes, Claire is fantastic. We would all do well to listen to her.

I thought why am i trying here when somebody better said it so well... haven't read the thread so apologies if she's been linked to already.

"There needs to be scope for women to explore the lows as well as the highs of practicing feminism – in particular, space for women marginalised through race, class, and sexuality to address problems created in our lives when the women who have more power than we do decide to wield it against us. Those exchanges are painful and demanding, but without them the women who ought to be centred within feminism end up pushed to the margins or growing so alienated that they leave the movement altogether. I have watched women with good hearts, sharp minds, and highly relevant critiques leave the feminist movement when the women holding the lion’s share of power refuse to hear them.

Radical feminists pride ourselves on being women who speak truth to power, and rightly so – but so much of what is good about our movement breaks down when women among our ranks are the power to whom truth must be spoken, when those women refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of critiques directed towards them. "

She's @Claireshrugged on Twitter for those of you who haven't been banned

sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/dispatches-from-the-margins-on-women-race-and-class/ (I need more coffee forgotten how to make it clicky)

I also don’t agree that race just isn’t the issue it is in the US. Racism is deeply ingrained in this country too and this is what POC are saying. I say we listen to them. White people don’t experience racism so we can’t reliably say it doesn’t happen. It’s equivalent to men saying that sexism doesn’t happen anymore. How would they know when they don’t experience it? We’d be furious if men claimed to speak for us and told us to zip it ‘because we’re all human’ and I can absolutely see why WOC get angry when told to shut up for the greater good.

And as for saying that poorer birth outcomes are related to class not race, you can’t separate the two. Why is it that members of a certain race have poorer socio-economic conditions, poorer educational outcomes, less representation at higher levels of society? That’s part of the problem and needs to be addressed and it’s absolutely a feminist issue that we should be deeply concerned about.

The problem is that people like Alison who complain about white feminism doesn’t do anything to counter it. She thinks she is addressing it by inviting a black or Asian professor to speak at her conference or by tweeting outrage that there aren’t many black history-PhDs. Her beliefs directly contribute to harm to women of a lower socio-economic class because these are the women who may need to use shelters, refuges etc. She claims to speak for all women but she lives in an ivory tower. When she interviews sex workers, it’s middle class webcam girls and strip club workers, not heroin-addicts selling themselves for £15 on the streets and being beaten up by their pimps. Rather than helping women in the sex industry, she is almost exclusively concerned with point-scoring against radical feminists, making up insults and slurs for those who who are motivated exclusively by trying to help women. Completely pathetic.

I agree 100% that there is a tendency to overlook issues that affect BAME women and that absolutely has to be worked on and addressed. But I think that the term ‘white feminism’ is used predominantly as a slur and attack on the rad fem movement. If anything, radical feminism has real potential for addressing issues of classism and racism too because it calls for breaking down oppressive structures rather than upholding them.

Obviously in an 86% white country, the vast majority of feminists will be white. But being white obviously doesn’t stop Alison from speaking out and spreading her shit views, so why should other white (real)feminists be prevented from doing so? However, I do think that means paying attention to things like not linking up or appearing to support someone with extreme racist views. For WOC, they can’t just put issues of racism to one side because people like that are threatening their very safety and existence and we need to be mindful of that. I also think WOC from affected cultures should take the lead on issues like hijab rather than white women imposing our views. Yes, it may be patriarchal but we engage in plenty of our own submission to patriarchy (taking husband’s name on marriage, being given away- all of those have unpleasant patriarchal connotations). Why can’t we listen to women from those communities and respect their views?

As I say, like what?

What about the examples in my post above? Mortality rates in childbirth are surely a feminist issue.

if BAME women say something disproportionately impacts them

As I say, like what? And it can't be racism, that is a separate issue to sexism. Feminists can't be expected to fight every other prejudice or there'd be no time for feminism if we also have to solve racism, disability, classism, ageism, accents, appearance, disfigurement, religion, occupation etc before we're allowed to speak.

I said FGM above, I'll add honour killings. No, white women have not swept these under the carpet as irrelevant, even though FGM is entirely imported by non-white communities. But white feminists are the bad guys