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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The problem with white feminism

469 replies

FrackOff · 07/11/2019 09:42

Listen to this amazing podcast on white feminism, the link with the right wing, racism and colonialism pca.st/vzbdlq7j

You need to hear the whole thing to get the whole argument

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Justhadathought · 10/11/2019 16:11

This isnt the right special time or place. I'm not putting in the right sort of effort. You say jump and I have the audacity to not be arsed

I think quite a few people have put in quite a bit of effort here and "jumped" - especially in order to engage with you. What makes you so special?

You've had it suggested you get the ball rolling on a number of occasions and people would engage and discuss......but you seem to only have one game plan - and that doesn't involve reciprocity.

LangCleg · 10/11/2019 16:00

This isnt the right special time or place. I'm not putting in the right sort of effort.

Mate, you've contributed to two threads in FWR. On both, you''ve attempted a lengthy and massive derail from the topic. And then complained when other contributors tried to steer it back to the topic.

If you want to discuss something in particular: start a thread.

You're perfectly free to have any time and place you like: start a thread.

Hazardd · 10/11/2019 15:39

just your quite right your stance is so blind I have doubts in my ability to engage with you. So I used quotes from women who are more able to explain. But that's not enough is it? That's what's made clear over and over again. This isnt the right special time or place. I'm not putting in the right sort of effort. You say jump and I have the audacity to not be arsed.

But some women like Claire and Linda thank fuck can be arsed. So I celebrate them.

(And pps on this thread like reality and Ms can be arsed to.)

Justhadathought · 10/11/2019 15:15

I'm afraid there's a germ of truth in all this. White middle class women who have achieved status in the professional world, often hire poorer women to do their household chores and childcare

And so do professional women of all ethnicities. I'm finding it difficult to find that relevant to this particular board, though

Justhadathought · 10/11/2019 15:11

She herself is guilty of white feminism. Just pointing out that it is an issue and that claiming it is a grassroots movement and that nobody has any accountability isn’t really a good excuse

Whatever she does it can be guaranteed she's "guilty" too.....

This is a grassroots movement. It is not a claim. And we all have accountability for what we say and do; but we are not all accountable for everything anyone else does; although we can, of course, challenge each other.

Justhadathought · 10/11/2019 15:07

As the thread exists isn't it a wonderful opportunity to say y'know there is an issue in feminism with racism, niches, othering and victiming and HEY LOOK AT THESE MAGNIFICENT VOICES WITHIN FEMINISM

It seems to me that you don't want to really discuss, in any detail or depth, substantive issues ( or the pod cast): you just want to keep repeating that there are issues with 'White feminism' as if that is enough in itself.

Justhadathought · 10/11/2019 15:03

*if they say have an issue with people appearing to give support of right wing extremist8

You can voice that as much as you wish...there are no rules forbidding you from doing so. But as has already been said - this a public forum, at which, gathers a wide range of people, from a wide range of backgrounds. We are not all alike, except for in our gender critical analysis of the radical transgender ideology.

You seem to want to make each and every person who post responsible for things that some do or say that you don't like. And it also seems that you would like to shut down discussion of things you find difficult or upsetting.

Justhadathought · 10/11/2019 14:57

that there is an issue within British feminism surrounding BAME and working class women

What is this 'issue' you speak of...? It seems to me you are making some quite categorical and sweeping generalisations. That anyone who posts in a forthright and articulate manner on the subject of women or radical trans ideology, must be 'middle class' or have grown up privileged; never knowing hardship or discrimination.

How are you any different yourself? What makes you so sure of your own superior and inclusive stance? In what ways are you any different, or less privileged than people posting here? You are making some pretty big judgments - whilst not extended that same kind of sweeping analysis to yourself.

The motive here is to discredit Gender Critical women as being "just white and middle class" - as if that would discredit any subsequent arguments, leaving you morally pure and unblemished.

MsSafina · 10/11/2019 14:14

I'm afraid there's a germ of truth in all this. White middle class women who have achieved status in the professional world, often hire poorer women to do their household chores and childcare.

Hazardd · 10/11/2019 13:35

I think theres a reasonable amount of agreement that no one cares about what Alison has to say. That's not curious.

As the thread exists isn't it a wonderful opportunity to say y'know there is an issue in feminism with racism, niches, othering and victiming and HEY LOOK AT THESE MAGNIFICENT VOICES WITHIN FEMINISM.

But no apparently we're not allowed to do that. We must only do that at certain special times.

LangCleg · 10/11/2019 13:14

Good well we’re in agreement then.

Are we? What do you think about the Phipps podcast?

people appearing to give support of right wing extremists

Has Phipps done that? Do elaborate. Has anyone on this thread critiquing Phipps done that?

Because this looks like a (second, hello Early) attempt to shoehorn in a woman who is a) not a radical feminist and b) has nothing to do with the topic at hand: the Phipps podcast.

RealityNotEssentialism · 10/11/2019 13:01

Good well we’re in agreement then. And hopefully people won’t be criticised in the future for not focusing on the big issues if they say have an issue with people appearing to give support of right wing extremists.

wigglybeezer · 10/11/2019 13:00

Im getting deja vu, having been part of a discussion on an Extinction Rebellion Facebook page that unfurled along similar lines. People getting upset that a grass roots activist organisation did not behave like a top down political organisation with a set of strict rules and a highly managed and curated public image, nevermind that the whole point is to focus on a single goal in a way political parties can't anymore.
Lots of vitriol flung around about white privilege, mostly from white people.
Very counterproductive.

LangCleg · 10/11/2019 12:45

No lang not in support of Alison

Ah, okay. What's your critique of the podcast, since that's the topic of the thread.

However, listening to what women like Claire say is also a good idea.

Who said it wasn't? As I noted similarly with regard to Pragna Patel several times earlier in the thread. This thread is intended to analyse Alison Phipps's podcast.

Like I say: curious we're not doing that.

RealityNotEssentialism · 10/11/2019 12:41

I don’t think anyone is supporting Alison here. She herself is guilty of white feminism. Just pointing out that it is an issue and that claiming it is a grassroots movement and that nobody has any accountability isn’t really a good excuse. Alison is an idiot who wants to shut women down and uses their skin colour to do so. However, listening to what women like Claire say is also a good idea.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 10/11/2019 12:37

I don't think that you will get many posters disagreeing with the idea that middle class white highly educated liberal feminists like Alison Phipps trying to impose an ideology on working class and ethnic minority women against their wishes and interests is a problem Hazardd.

Hazardd · 10/11/2019 12:22

No lang not in support of Alison but in support of the notion that there is an issue within British feminism surrounding BAME and working class women.

Hazardd · 10/11/2019 12:20

Linda Bellos discussing her time at Spare Rib. She noticed an amplification of african american black voices but a shut down of Black British.

www.bl.uk/spare-rib/articles/the-limitations-of-identity-politics

The problem with white feminism
LangCleg · 10/11/2019 12:18

Hazardd! Are you using Claire Heuchan in support of Alison Phipps? If so....

.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Good one!

Hazardd · 10/11/2019 11:51

"....there is a persistent strain of what masquerades as radical feminism – led by women who are predominantly white, middle class, and heterosexual – which aims to dismantle the gendered inequalities experienced by certain women whilst clinging to the privileges brought to them by hierarchies of race and class. It ought to go without saying that weaponising racism and classism against women who hold less social power than you do is a fundamental contradiction of feminist principles, yet this pattern of behaviour is rife within the British feminist movement."

Doesn't Claire just say it better?

I said niche but I should have (or of - i forget sorry lang Grin ) said "otherness" and "othering".

"To be Other on multiple counts is profoundly challenging, but it also creates rich standpoints and fertile ground for movement building. I almost wish that it were possible to bring white middle class feminists en masse to a standpoint rooted in Otherness, even briefly, so that they would be more open to empathising and connecting with those Audre Lorde knew to “stand outside the circle of this society’s definition of acceptable women; those of us who have been forged in the crucibles of difference – those of us who are poor, who are lesbians, who are Black, who are older…” I’d like to share the joy in what Otherness makes possible with white middle class feminists because, having felt it, practicing cruelty and domination against women with less power would be at least become harder to countenance. Replicating hierarchies would, perhaps, lose its appeal if a true vision of radical alternatives could be witnessed. Or maybe that’s foolish talk. Either way, I’m glad it’s a hypothetical scenario – if white middle class feminists chose cruelty and dominance over kindness and connection, it would crush what hope I have left for this movement."

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 10/11/2019 11:42

Lang, yes TIM is not one I use myself due to sectarian connotations. It's a bit of a shame in some respects as I can see why people find it a useful construct but here it already has a (derogatory) meaning which makes it un helpful in the specific cultural context. It would just be taken the wrong way.

Justhadathought · 10/11/2019 11:33

One major example is where GC movements or prominent people in them decide to partner with people

GC feminism is a grassroots movement - that encompasses all manner of people, coalitions, loose coalitions, active and specific campaign groups..... It is not like an organised political party with a manifesto which you sign up to.

All such movements will involve any number of actors with whom you don't necessarily share common sympathy on all matters. However, in these febrile days it seems that growing intolerance of disagreement, and a seeming pressing need for everyone to sing from exactly the same hymn sheet is the defining characteristic.

It will not happen here, though. you cannot demand total compliance, and then castigate all in sweeping ways when one dopes something you don't like or approve of.

This is where intersectional & narrowly defined identity politics has got us. We were never more divided and tribalistic than we now are.

LangCleg · 10/11/2019 11:25

Well said, Arnold. And can I add to your list - gerrymandering of electoral districts to ensure no representation; closed shop for many professions; exclusion from law enforcement. I had to explain elsewhere the other day why "Tim" may be misinterpreted if one is talking to a Brit in an area where sectarianism is a factor. And one American told me that she didn't give a shit and would use what terms she liked when she liked. This is exactly why imposing a US lens onto Britain is counter-productive. Not only is it unhelpful in addressing the UK's actual and specific problems with racism, it elides vital axes of discrimination that also exist here.

NotDavidTennant · 10/11/2019 11:24

Do the the people who criticise "white feminism" also criticise "male anti-racism" or "able-bodied gay rights activism"? If not, why not?

LangCleg · 10/11/2019 11:17

Fascinating how this thread suddenly has nothing to do with the Alison Phipps podcast - which attempts to label radical feminism (internationalist in focus and taking account of the impact of social class in anti-racist work) as "white feminism" in a derogatory manner, while itself being the absolute epitome of (class privileged, neoliberal) "white feminism" itself.

Curious.

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