The problem with white feminism

Terfsandwich

Completely misrepresenting my point. Of course men get away with not being considered in this equation. My point is that for some women, late capitalist society has liberated them from the "feminine" roles that kept them housebound
Since the advent of the industrial revolution WC women have continued to have to run their own homes and run the homes of the rich/care for rich people's children
The rich have choice: the poor have not, or have less choice

No. Not misrepresenting you. Below is what you wrote and your follow up above makes it no better.

completely agree with this critique. Professional women can maintain a career because they can shift the feminine roles onto lower status, lower paid women. Who often come from a minority race background

Not a word of criticism about a male parent employing outside help to maintain his career; and no coherent explanation of why anyone employing outside help should be criticised.

Disclaimer: I have not listened to the podcast and have been keeping only a cursory eye on this thread.

It occurs to me that those who criticise "white feminism" are really criticising feminists, therefore women.

Scratch beneath the surface of the anti-"white feminism" sentiment and it reveals itself as an attack on women.

It is a way to undermine and ridicule women.

As a (white) feminist and as a human being I try hard to understand the lives of people less fortunate or different to me. I make an effort to think about the impact of views or policies on others who do not share the privileges that I have. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't, because I'm not perfect.

But those who ridicule"white feminism" do not care one jot for the reflection that I and thousands of other rad fems like me engage in.

They don't ridicule Stonewall for being too white. They don't criticise disability activism for not being sufficiently ethnically diverse. They don't criticise Fathers for Justice for only having white men dress up as Spiderman.

Instead they carry on undermining, ridiculing, criticising women.

It was ever thus.

Disclaimer: I have not listened to the podcast and have been keeping only a cursory eye on this thread.

It occurs to me that those who criticise "white feminism" are really criticising feminists, therefore women.

Scratch beneath the surface of the anti-"white feminism" sentiment and it reveals itself as an attack on women.

It is a way to undermine and ridicule women.

As a (white) feminist and as a human being I try hard to understand the lives of people less fortunate or different to me. I make an effort to think about the impact of views or policies on others who do not share the privileges that I have. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't, because I'm not perfect.

But those who ridicule"white feminism" do not care one jot for the reflection that I and thousands of other rad fems like me engage in.

They don't ridicule Stonewall for being too white. They don't criticise disability activism for not being sufficiently ethnically diverse. They don't criticise Fathers for Justice for only having white men dress up as Spiderman.

Instead they carry on undermining, ridiculing, criticising women.

It was ever thus.

Completely misrepresenting my point. Of course men get away with not being considered in this equation. My point is that for some women, late capitalist society has liberated them from the "feminine" roles that kept them housebound.
Since the advent of the industrial revolution WC women have continued to have to run their own homes and run the homes of the rich/care for rich people's children.
The rich have choice: the poor have not, or have less choice.

Lang what do I think of the Phipps podcast? I think it’s a total load of shit. I am vehemently opposed to people like Alison Phipps and Sally Hines and their treatment of GC women. Relieved I am not the only one who has the concerns I do but yeah probably best saved for another thread. Claire Heuchan is awesome though and I will always have time to listen to her.

Thanks for this. Appreciated.

I am interested in listening to BAME women talk about the issues that affect them and how white women can provide better support.

I have no interest in listening to a white British academic discuss racial issues using the distorted lens of American identity politics.

Inebriati

Whats wrong with being a nanny or a cleaner?
Its ridiculous to think we can all be academics or high flyers. Society needs people like me who do the mundane jobs. People who look down on me for it can do one

And even if one were capable of being a high flyer , heaven forfend one would abandon one's natural feminine role.

There is nothing wrong with being a nanny or a cleaner.

Not disagreeing about lower status women doing the grunt work but if a country has an immigration policy which allows and even encourages a large number of adults of a low-skill, low education backgroundy to enter the country, these people areinevitablygoing to enter the socioeconomic spectrum at the low pay, low skill end and the vast majority will stay there

Lower status women? The nanny I employed had done a 2 year vocational college course in child- care. She knew far more about looking after babies than I or my husband did.

Bore off with your snobbish, patronising and ignorant remarks.

Do white people with a disability get this treatment when they bring up problems related to their disability?

Do they get told they are not thinking about the different issues black people with a disability have and to check their privilege and address their latent racism?

Whats wrong with being a nanny or a cleaner?
Its ridiculous to think we can all be academics or high flyers. Society needs people like me who do the mundane jobs. People who look down on me for it can do one.

they can shift the feminine roles onto lower status, lower paid women. Who often come from a minority race background.

Not disagreeing about lower status women doing the grunt work but if a country has an immigration policy which allows and even encourages a large number of adults of a low-skill, low education backgroundy to enter the country, these people are inevitably going to enter the socioeconomic spectrum at the low pay, low skill end and the vast majority will stay there.

This is deliberate. The importation of cheap labour is the main purpose of such an immigration policy so that we can produce goods and services at lower cost - lower cost to the owner of the business anyway.

It is why the low-skill indigenous population (who in the UK will be white) get upset when their pay and conditions suffer due to the supply of other low-skilled workers from abroad. It contributes to low pay and rubbish protections for all of them and fuels anti-immigration feeling. Instead of this being acknowledged, the white indigenous poor are told they are racists and should shut up. Nobody gives a shit about them, just tells them they should support the undercutting of their own pay in the interests of maintaining a competitive economy.

Do men ever get criticised when they outsource DIY, car maintenance etc?

No of course they don't. And of course the posters who posted this retrograde nonsense don't criticise the husbands and male partners of women like me for employing nannies, cleaners or an ironing service.

That thought did occur to me, that women were being shamed for not doing their housewifely duties with that little bit of analysis setting women against each other. Weird how the shaming completely bypasses men, when most of them do so very little housework and like to leave it up to women.

Lang what do I think of the Phipps podcast? I think it’s a total load of shit. I am vehemently opposed to people like Alison Phipps and Sally Hines and their treatment of GC women.
Relieved I am not the only one who has the concerns I do but yeah probably best saved for another thread. Claire Heuchan is awesome though and I will always have time to listen to her.

Do men ever get criticised when they outsource DIY, car maintenance etc?

Incredible that the men who aren't pulling their weight and have shifted their "feminine" role of doing their fair share on to women, be it their female partners or cleaners whom they employ, don't even get a mention

Oh it's worse than that. How dare any women pursue a career when clearly it will interfere with her natural, feminine, home- making role.

I've seen some codswallop on MN in general and FWR in particular but this takes the biscuit.

I completely agree with this critique. Professional women can maintain a career because they can shift the feminine roles onto lower status, lower paid women. Who often come from a minority race background

What complete tripe.

White middle class women who have achieved status in the professional world, often hire poorer women to do their household chores and childcare

How tedious. Over the years my husband and I employed various people to do various domestic work for us. I was blissfully unaware keeping the house not looking like a pig sty, keeping my husband's shirts wrinkle free or looking after our son whilst we were both at work was my exclusive responsibility.

I have also employed painters, decorators, plumbers, electricians - do you have a problem with my outsourcing that work?

Who often come from a minority race background

They may well do in the U.S where whole sections of the economy are dependent on Mexican and other immigrant labour, but in Britain ( outside of London, certainly), cleaning and domestic service type roles are usually carried out by white working class women.

Incredible that the men who aren't pulling their weight and have shifted their "feminine" role of doing their fair share on to women, be it their female partners or cleaners whom they employ, don't even get a mention.

Men are the beneficiaries from women having to do the bulk of the domestic work, not women.

I'm afraid there's a germ of truth in all this. White middle class women who have achieved status in the professional world, often hire poorer women to do their household chores and childcare

I completely agree with this critique. Professional women can maintain a career because they can shift the feminine roles onto lower status, lower paid women. Who often come from a minority race background.

I'm afraid there's a germ of truth in all this. White middle class women who have achieved status in the professional world, often hire poorer women to do their household chores and childcare.

Do you think Alison employs a cleaner? She's certainly achieved status in the professional world, given that she's a professor.

Alison is taking aim at radical feminists. All the radical feminists I've ever known have generally had low incomes. There's something about the outlook which means that men don't want you to succeed in their world, and probably that you don't want to be rewarded in theirs.

Also my Irish grandmother never went outside without a scarf on her head. Headscarfs are part of my culture and traditions too - does that mean I get a say?

I also think WOC from affected cultures should take the lead on issues like hijab rather than white women imposing our views... Why can’t we listen to women from those communities and respect their views

This is an example of how identity politics ends up deepening racial divisions. This quote shows that it is assumed "women of colour" (a sweeping generalisation and othering category) are a hive mind.

Women in Iran are taking the lead and utterly rejecting the headscarf. But if we listen to them...

I am saying that many women of colour have expressed disappointment that often their perspective is overlooked. One major example is where GC movements or prominent people in them decide to partner with people who wish harm on people of colour and when a lot (not all) GC women on forums like this tell them to suck up their concerns for the greater good.

In fact it's usually the case when these discussions happen that some of the people of colour who take the view you describe make that argument, and other people of colour disagree.

The more basic problem is that people's feelings don't tell us what to do. A group of people may all find a particular ideology seriously problematic in some way, and yet will vary about how they deal with that. Some may want to have nothing to do with them, others may be ok with strategic alliances over specific things, others may even see them as significant allies in some sense.