The problem with white feminism

Boris was struggling wielding a mop. He probably has never washed a kitchen floor or cleaned a toilet. I’m sure all his female partners will have.

1 My male partner is a cleaner. He cleans planes, on night shift. He has in the past cleaned factories, in both the electronics and meat industries, and hospitals. Cleaning is not exclusive to working class women, there are a lot of working class men cleaners too.

2 Many (not all) domestic cleaners are self employed allowing for flexibility in working hours and a level of control over ones working life that an awful lot of working class women do not enjoy.

3 A lot of middle class women work in child care. Of the 5 child minders who regularly come to the song and rhyme sessions I run only one is from a working class background.

4 The richest person I know in real life is a window cleaner. Started as a one man show and built up a highly successful business employing dozens.

Cleaning and child care roles encompass a wide variety of positions. Some are low skilled, others less so. Some are low paid drudgery, others successful businesses.

Also I find some people who have a cleaner tend to think they are so condescending kind towards a member of the lower orders, always showing off how friendly they are and how they give them cast offs etc

More bigoted nonsense.

terfsandwich
Donestic drudge, childcare = anyone can do it, therefore often falls to low skilled working class with little other choice

Your nasty choice of words there says a lot about you. I assume the fact that nanny had done a 2 year training college course to be a nanny sailed over your head as it doesn't fit your narrative.

I thought the argument was that prostitution, cam work, stripping etc wasnotthe same as being a nanny, cleaner or supermarket worker

Well exactly- although lumping nanny in as unskilled job is bizarre.

There are problematic areas in terms of the middle classes viewing certain jobs like cleaning etc as the sole province of low skilled working classes

The only problematic attitude I am seeing is that exhibited by terfsandwich and dreichdrizzle with their loathing and resentment of anyone who can afford to employ help and terfsandwich's really quite offensive comment comparing that type of work to prostitution.

I thought the argument was that prostitution, cam work, stripping etc was not the same as being a nanny, cleaner or supermarket worker.
Given the choice, I would much rather a woman looking for work decided to be a cleaner, for example, rather than a stripper. The LibFem argument is that both jobs are equivalent and therefore stripping is a better choice because you can potentially earn more and have more control over your work (even if it's a false sense of control).

There are problematic areas in terms of the middle classes viewing certain jobs like cleaning etc as the sole province of low skilled working classes. I think it's really important to teach middle class children, especially boys, that they should clean up after themselves and not expect others to do it for them by default. If you are able bodied, it can't be that difficult to keep a home reasonably clean. Dishwashers and washing machines make life easier. Men are capable of vacuuming, mopping, cleaning bathrooms and toilets. It only takes a couple of hours, especially if tasks are shared between two people.

However, cleaning and childcare jobs do have a place in our economies and societies. There's nothing demeaning about them and people should be paid well and treated with respect in these roles just like any other job.

I agree with you terfsandwich, I couldn't do it either.

Donestic drudge, childcare = anyone can do it, therefore often falls to low skilled working class with little other choice

Prostitute = anyone can do it, therefore often falls to low skilled working class with little other choice

Plumber, mechanic = specialised trade, not a daily task, only source when need maintenance.

To be honest I just find the idea of employing a servant unpalatable. Ive been a privileged minority on an inflated wage in another country and I just couldn't participate in that service economy.

Also I find some people who have a cleaner tend to think they are so condescending kind towards a member of the lower orders, always showing off how friendly they are and how they give them cast offs etc.

The criticism of the proposed feminist solution in terms of shifting work to lower class women is an important one, because it shows a structural problem not only in terms of the solution but in terms of the question. It's also a criticism in some sense of capitalism and suggests that the reason the question is wrong is because it's a middle class question - the proposed answer isn't about female solidarity so much as class solidarity. For the bourgeoisie, women have more freedom to do financially advantageous and even interesting work through paid childcare, and even having fathers take on the childcare role. This is in fact a financial benefit for the whole family.

For working class women, the effect is less clearly advantageous, doesn't necessarily put her in a more powerful financial position, and in fact may well mean she is doing the same kind of work, but as an employee.

All that bullshit about virtue, it’s oppression we’re talking about here Carol.

I’ve been shaming men. You can’t read.

I said Joyce was being obtuse, you just picked it up and ran with it.

Men cleaning their own lavatories and clearing up the messes they have made isn’t an arbitrary line, it’s pretty obvious. It’s why people employ cleaners in their home because they can see a clear line around those activities which means they can pay to have them done.

Driechdrizzle
That thought did occur to me, that women were being shamed for not doing their housewifely duties*

That cap fits you to a T

terfsandwich
The working classes are so lucky to have highly educated people employ them to do domestic tasks. Where would they be without them?
It's just like how lucky working class women are that men neeeeeed them for wanking into. It gives them so much choice-choice!*

Comparing cleaners and nannies to prostitution is witless and offensive.

As it happens the cleaners in my are mixed male and female. As it happens I've employed male cleaners in my house.

Driechdrizzle
I just drew the line - getting other people to clear up messes you've made yourself in your own home unless for some physical reason you need help. You don't need to be so obtuse

You drew your own arbitrary line because I expect it allows you to polish your own halo of virtue. Calling me "obtuse" does not by the way prevent your points being ridiculous.

The working classes are so lucky to have highly educated people employ them to do domestic tasks. Where would they be without them?
It's just like how lucky working class women are that men neeeeeed them for wanking into. It gives them so much choice-choice!

It's such a terrible lesson to teach children too, especially boys, that there will always be someone to clear up after them. It breeds entitlement.

I just drew the line - getting other people to clear up messes you've made yourself in your own home unless for some physical reason you need help. You don't need to be so obtuse.

I don't see why any man has a woman cleaning his toilet for him. Especially given the piss they spray everywhere. Quite disgusting for her.

Should women be churning their own butter, spinning their own yarn, collecting their own firewood?

Presumably yes and hell mend the income and livelihoods of butter- churners, spinners and wood cutters.

You can keep your job. It's the male bosses who need to stand down for the good of all of us

How could I keep my job given according to some "feminists" on here I'm refusing to accept the natural feminine tasks such as cleaning my house?

Is there a handy cut out and keep guide for tasks one should virtuously do oneself and ones where it is permitted to hire outside assistance? (To be clear , I have zero interest in what the answer might be)

But where do you draw the line? Should women be churning their own butter, spinning their own yarn, collecting their own firewood?

Of course there is. Getting other people to clean up messes you've made is disgusting. There are various groups of people who need help with this, but the able-bodied should be doing it for themselves

Well I've seen some real claptrap on FWR over the years but this really is outstanding.

"What a weird idea- is there some sort of virtue in doing it all oneself?"

Of course there is. Getting other people to clean up messes you've made is disgusting. There are various groups of people who need help with this, but the able-bodied should be doing it for themselves.

You're sounding like you're over-identifying with male bosses Carol. You can keep your job. It's the male bosses who need to stand down for the good of all of us.

I've thought for a long time, that the male bosses in companies in the City should be required to spend an hour a day cleaning their offices, instead of leaving it up to poor and marginalised people, especially women. Things need to be shaken up

There are always going to be unskilled yet essential jobs. The answer is proper pay and working conditions- not this social justice warrior hand- wringing.

"Things need to be shaken up" how ? Give my job to the office cleaners and I'll do theirs? I could do their jobs- they couldn't do mine. My first holiday job was kitchen maid in a hotel. One of my tasks was scrubbing a stone floor on my hands and knees.

and dumping it all on ...women they can afford to pay

I'm still failing to see any coherent argument why a man or woman should not employ domestic help.

What a weird idea- is there some sort of virtue in doing it all oneself?

While we're on the subject of men, let's talk about how male violence is at the root of all oppression. No oppression can function without men's extreme murderous violence being available to create and enforce it. Somehow I don't think Alison Phipps has even considered that small point.

Completely misrepresenting my point. Of course men get away with not being considered in this equation.

So why keep doing it? Why leave men out of the equation? Who benefits?

Upper class men, middle class men and working class men are all getting away with doing little or no domestic labour and dumping it all on the women closest to them or women they can afford to pay.

I've thought for a long time, that the male bosses in companies in the City should be required to spend an hour a day cleaning their offices, instead of leaving it up to poor and marginalised people, especially women. Things need to be shaken up.