The problem with white feminism

*There is a correlation between socioeconomic disadvantage and ethnicity&

There is also a correlation between economic disadvantage and geographical location, that has nothing to do with race.

I used to be a teacher, and I taught in a very high achieving grammar school, amongst others. Originally, a long time ago, at its inception, this school was a boys' school; and then about twenty or so years ago it started admitting girls.

It was, back in the day, a predominantly 'white' school - with maybe a few children of other ethnicities. These days it is about a 50/50 split between white pupils and pupils of other ethnicities. What is striking is the different ethnic make-up of the school. Large numbers of Chinese - Asian and Indian - Asian, as well as a growing number of pupils of Middle Eastern/Arabic origin, but relatively few black pupils. Of those, it is conspicuous how many are second generation of, say, Nigerian professional parents.

Different ethnic groups have their own issues, and bring with them their own specific cultural patterns. And ethnic groups each have their own class issues too. There is also social diversity within each ethnic grouping.

Happy for my metric to include for a person to train themselves to that level. I didn't specify whether a formal qualification needs to be awarded by someone else at the end of the training period.

I think we may agree that the skill level reached will depend a lot on the number of hours required to reach it. With some jobs or activities you absolutely must put in thousands to be competent or safe to be let loose on the public lol while for others you really can peak at maximum skill and efficiency with far fewer.

There will often (but not always, depending on supply) be a correlation with how replaceable you or they are. The "fuck it, I'll do it myself" rule is also fairly useful. So for me: Cleaning? I can do it. Wallpapering? I'll give it a stab from scratch. Plastering? Professionals. Appendectomy? Definitely professionals. Etc.

Black women in the UK are affected by colonialism! Where do you think their families have travelled from? Also institutional racism is a direct descendant of colonialism.

Yes - and some non-white women also benefited. For example:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/racism-and-the-truth-about-the-ugandan-asians-172084.html

Brown gets a lot of shit - often from the Woke - for daring to talk about this.

But this is why we are telling you that you can't elide social class and why we're telling you that importing US cultural imperialism is unhelpful in a non-US context. It won't help British minorities at all.

In fact, I'd argue the elision of class as unhelpful in a US context also: non-oppressed wealthy immigrants are able to appropriate the oppression faced by descendants of African slaves or indigenous peoples as directly applicable to their own situations, even if they grew up as the oppressing class in their home countries in a house full of servants.

@Antibles. Yes and no. You have highly skilled cooks, gardeners, builders, musicians, writers and artists who are self taught and don't need people ratifying their skills. Some superb cleaners and decorators ditto. And some highly qualified people who are outclassed by less qualified people for other attributes than paper qualifications.

Surely skill level is fairly easily defined by how long on average it would take to train a person to perform the job competently.

I think it’s actually quite telling that certain posters seem to be arguing that being a cleaner is “unskilled” whereas being a painter or a changing oil or doing minor home or computer repairs for a living is “specialized labor”

This is true but I think at least some were aware that their reaction was not logical but a result of societal attitudes.

There is no reason why painting and decorating, a domestic chore the majority of people do themselves but a minority outsource should be considered a 'skilled' trade while cleaning, a domestic chore the majority of people do themselves but a minority outsource is considered 'unskilled' beyond ingrained, unthinking, sexist societal norms.

At no point have I denied black women are affected by racism in the U.K. (?!) What I have said, is that some groups of white women are also considered ethnic minorities, and using "POC" rather than BAME, as well as assuming they are the "colonisers" is offensive to them.

Why do you refuse to acknowledge this?

Correlation does not equal causation though, does it - that would be very lazy thinking

And we're back to the term POC being a construct that fails when it takes no account of social class!

Absolutely. I can vouch that there are quite a few middle class South Asians and Arabs that have a terrible attitude towards those they consider 'beneath' them and some of the women think it's quite normal to treat domestic helpers badly and not pay them well or expect them to turn up at all hours or do more than they were hired for.

People should be held responsible for their poor or bad behaviour irrespective of their ethnicity and I think many in the West feel reluctant to do this for fear of being labelled racist or something, usually by other 'white' folk in a similar manner to those who are prone to go on about 'white feminism'.

Cleaning DOES require specialized equipment (including chemicals that need to be handled and disposed of carefully) and skills similar in type to those needed for the other occupations listed

Another similar example there could be hairdressing - a "female" job looked down on for being "low skilled"

I think it’s actually quite telling that certain posters seem to be arguing that being a cleaner is “unskilled” whereas being a painter or a changing oil or doing minor home or computer repairs for a living is “specialized labor”.

This is the problem right here. Cleaning DOES require specialized equipment (including chemicals that need to be handled and disposed of carefully) and skills similar in type to those needed for the other occupations listed. You ask my brother to clean a house he is going to get 409 and some paper towels and after he’s done you’ll ask him when he’s planning to get started. He has no more clue how to clean than I do how to change the oil on my Car. However of course Either of us could quickly learn either skill.

We don’t see “women’s work” as specialized only because of misogyny. There’s no other reason.

Some clients look down on you coughwealthySaudiscough**

I was thinking of that example myself......it is not just about middle class white women, as we are led to believe, but middle class women of other ethnicities can themselves be guilty of treating their domestic help as subservients. Especially those from cultures in which domestic help and 'servants' are the norm for many.

There's a rather large difference in the U.K. pay wise between a private nanny and a childminder/babysitter or even an au pair. The idea of the darker skinned, poorly paid nanny is another Americanism, isn't it?

Childminding, as an occupation, is something many mothers of young children do, or consider doing, in the U.K. Nothing to do with class or race, necessarily. All mothers require childminders at one point or other; especially if grandparents or other family members are not at hand.

Thanks to everyone who posted about being a cleaner ; ) It isn't my favourite thing to do but I honestly felt less exploited than I did as a shop assistant (which involves a lot of cleaning anyway - but you get paid less than the contracted cleaners some places bring in) The pay is usually a bit better and the hours more flexible. Some clients look down on you coughwealthySaudiscough, but some people look down on bin men, shop workers, window cleaners, plumbers etc. Same for bad employers.
Comparing working class service-type occupations,including essential services, to prostitution is such a poor take.

has her own voice and opinions, much of which has been ignored or decentred by posters on this thread, which I think rather makes Alison Phipps' point

You can't seriously imagine that all the posters on here could tell the interviewer was black and so everyone ignored her views (which were largely just agreeing with Alison)?

This does rather seem like you are not arguing honestly.

In the UK is it not women working in nurseries who are most commonly on very low pay and who often face barriers to entry in other child care settings?

I have no doubt a lot of darker skinned women are employed in nurseries as are a lot of white working class women.

Somewhat ironically telling of the colonialism effect espoused by AP - that posters have to keep reminding others that we are not in America, isn't it. :)

That is not to say that childcare isn't viewed as menial work - the fact that pp have automatically lumped nanny in with other childcare demonstrates that. I'm simply saying that our idea of poorly paid jobs is again being influenced by US norms.

There's a rather large difference in the U.K. pay wise between a private nanny and a childminder/babysitter or even an au pair. The idea of the darker skinned, poorly paid nanny is another Americanism, isn't it?

Nannying in London had me earning 50+k.

There are people who very much have the idea that you're of lower status and not very bright. Most women I know who nanny were trained ( I'm not, didn't finished my history degree either) a lot went on to do teacher training or nursing after, have families start their own businesses, the housekeepers I worked with were normally studying (accounting and social work etc) and I've worked for some really interesting and inspiring women.

The issue with nanny and paye isn't getting under paid generally in the U.K. (and NZ) but employers trying to not pay any/ all tax and pensions.

My view is that outsourcing your cleaning is completely fine, providing you pay properly for it

The issue is if you are under paying and therefore exploiting the people cleaning for you

My mother worked as a cleaner, and as housekeeper, at different times when I was growing up; also looked after the elderly parents of people who were working full time.

These were roles she felt she could do quite happily - and she developed good relationships and even friendships with some of the people she was employed by. One person even left her not an insubstantial amount of money in her will.