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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The problem with white feminism

469 replies

FrackOff · 07/11/2019 09:42

Listen to this amazing podcast on white feminism, the link with the right wing, racism and colonialism pca.st/vzbdlq7j

You need to hear the whole thing to get the whole argument

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RealityNotEssentialism · 07/11/2019 11:06

I mean, I know low student attendance is a bit of a problem but if you have 3 out of 80 students for half a semester then chances are it’s because of you. Probably because you expect them to accept your rubbish uncritically and because you tell them that none of their experiences could ever compare with those of a transwoman. Oh and that they are crying white tears over sexual assaults and should just recognise their privilege and shut up. I do wonder why you’re so unpopular, Alison.

littlbrowndog · 07/11/2019 11:06

From Raquel. Rosario Sanchez piece linked to on page 1

Notably, during my time as an immigrant in the US, most of the people who complained to me about what they called “white feminism” were white themselves. I felt tokenized; like they wanted me, as a Dominican woman of colour, to validate them and their feminism. I became suspicious of all white people who used the term. Criticizing “white feminism” seemed to be a way for white people to present themselves as different, better white people — as cool, “intersectional” feminists who just happen to be white.

Now that I am back in the Dominican Republic doing shelter work, I believe my friend from grad school was right about one thing: white feminism is real. It is epitomized by gender identity ideology.

The current trend among third wavers, as well as among progressives, is to argue that we can ignore whether people were born male or female and instead use language like “genderfluid,” “multi-gender,” or “genderqueer.” But there’s a massive gap between this language — popularized within Gender Studies classrooms in the West — and the realities of marginalized women in countries like mine.

GrumpyHoonMain · 07/11/2019 11:03

The difference between white and brown feminism is that brown feminism is often more pragmatic and gets things done by working within misogynistic systems, while white feminism is often radical and tries to make major infrastructural changes without encouraging grass roots change. There also seems to be a conflation of white feminism with TRA / LGBT rights which are both separate issues in non-white countries.

For example how many people know that women across the Middle East managed to use Islamic law to ban male lingerie staff by boycotting all local lingerie shops? It was so successful that even high end make up stores now only employ women.

Indian grass roots feminism is rooted in business. How many people know that poor women in the major Indian cities nearly all work yet their type of work (cooking / cleaning / dairy / demolition / bricklaying / rubbish collection services) wasn’t unionised until the feminist organisations stepped in to show them how. Now because of unions most of these professions essentially have a city wide minimum wage; and in a lot of cities women can earn more in these professions than men.

BadgertheBodger · 07/11/2019 11:02

Reality Grin apparently she’s not as interesting as she thinks she is

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 07/11/2019 11:02

I suppose Gogol could be regarded as a sort of proto-troll.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 07/11/2019 11:02

Can you blame them? If forced to attend her lectures I'd take headphones and a pillow.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 07/11/2019 11:01

As well as my liking of vodka I realise I have also been known to enjoy 19th century Russian literature.

If 'taken in by Russian trolls' means 'has been known to read Dostoyevsky' I must plead guilty as charged.

RealityNotEssentialism · 07/11/2019 11:00

It seems like Alison Phipps’ students have got the measure of her though.... I would also rather stay in bed than listen to her.

The problem with white feminism
BadgertheBodger · 07/11/2019 10:56

Is it time to roll out WBH again?

RealityNotEssentialism · 07/11/2019 10:56

Yeah I don’t like White Feminism. I really don’t and I think it is a thing. I think its main proponents are people like Alison Phipps and Sally Hines. Their ‘feminism’ is based around centering males and ridiculing and downplaying legitimate concerns from women. It is a patronising and exclusive form of feminism that is based on upholding capitalist and neoliberal values. Its tactics involve positioning yourself as better or different to other women and public takedowns and crucifixions of women that you disagree with. I think it’s abhorrent and it’s shocking that someone like Phipps lacks the insight to see that she is doing the very thing that she is supposedly campaigning against.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 07/11/2019 10:53

(Eagerly awaits explanation of how Frack just knows in her heart of hearts that Pragna Patel works for Vladimir Putin.)

littlbrowndog · 07/11/2019 10:52

That is a great piece justturtles.

LangCleg · 07/11/2019 10:52

Here you go, OP, have some imperative of your own.

Read Pragna Patel's FiLia speech:

filia.org.uk/news/2019/10/29/sbs-bradford-connection-and-the-politics-of-simultaneous-resistance

See what actual liberatory politics look like: internationalist, collaborative, class-based, positive, uplifting, inspirational.

What a far cry from bourgeois, third wave, identifarian, faux intersectional feminism's endless hectoring and picking and blindness to class.

Here is the FWR thread about it. Sad to see it passed you by:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3730067-Pragna-Patels-speech-from-FiLiA-Southall-Black-Sisters-Bradford-connection-and-the-politics-of-simultaneous-resistance

NonnyMouse1337 · 07/11/2019 10:51

White privilege is relevant when considering issues concerning women and race in feminism, it is completely irrelevant when considering the inclusion of mainly white, men who wish to be recognised as women.

Exactly.

Ereshkigal · 07/11/2019 10:50

I reject the use of 'white feminism' as a slur to those who don't wish to include men's sexual rights activism in their feminism.

This. It's a very common deployment of the term, and often by white women who consider themselves feminist, white TRAs, and white male allies of both these groups.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 07/11/2019 10:48

Well, the vodka I'd be up for but my Russian pronunciation isn't great.

Ereshkigal · 07/11/2019 10:47

It is after all lunchtime in Moscow.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 07/11/2019 10:47

In truth I did have a small vodka and coke while browsing Mumsner last night.

Bought it myself out of Tesco though, I don't think there were any Russians around but one can't be too careful these days.

UpfieldHatesWomen · 07/11/2019 10:42

*on phone, hence typos

littlbrowndog · 07/11/2019 10:41

Me

I got a voddie on the go now 🙋‍♀️

UpfieldHatesWomen · 07/11/2019 10:41

I reject the use of 'white feminism' as a slur to those who don't wish to include men's sexual rights activism in their feminism. Being white or not has nothing to do with it. White privilege is relevant when considering issues concerning women and race in feminism, it is completely irrelevant when considering the inclusion of mainly white, men who wish to be recognised as women. TRAs (mainly white) compare their lot to that of black women as a way to manipulative sympathy and provoke guilt. Nothing could be more racist than using black women's oppression as a springboard in this way.

Michelleoftheresistance · 07/11/2019 10:37

Taken in by Russian trolls?

I'm pretty sure Lily isn't Russian. Or Jess. Or Steph. Or Alex. Or Joss. Or Haddock. Or PC Gul. Miranda? Debbie? Datun? AttackKittens? Own up here. How many of you are knocking back vodka and shouting Na Zdorovie! as you MN?

JoyceJeffries · 07/11/2019 10:32

Could you type out a transcript of the pod cast?

Siameasy · 07/11/2019 10:31

Not more white women telling us how awful white women are whilst themselves being white and a woman.
OP you are assuming everyone here is white
Virtue signal somewhere else!

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