Emma Watson talks to Paris Lees about feminism

I think it's reasonable to hold Emma Watson's body of work up for debate. This interview with PL is part of that. Nobody's making personal remarks about EW's appearance.

I agree that this type of bland, carefully packaged feminism does more harm than good. And I totally agree with PP about the "women have choice" comment. Imagine what your "choices" would be if you lived in a culture where women choose to flatten their own breasts and woke up one day and declared yourself a feminist and would no longer be mutilating your own body.

I was nauseated by the ‘why aren’t you following me on Instagram?’ at the outset. It made the rest of the interview seem like an obsequious grovel. There was an odd power dynamic and EW was desperate to be so inclusive - it was performance feminism of a type that includes everyone and everything - meaningless. PL sat there trying to do this ‘girls together’ act. When she straight out asked EW if she would be scared to share a toilet with her I thought EW was going to throw herself at PL’s feet. And then PL started on about how she’d felt ugly growing up and I started to wonder who was interviewing who? I know this was Vogue but I just thought I would far prefer to have seen EW interviewed by someone like Kathy Burke. But it’s evident it was set up to be some sort of ‘celebrity activist’ mutual back slapping session. And there’s another word that’s become bloody meaningless - ‘activism’. Pah!

I find this such a shame. I used to think she was a brilliant role model for young girls until I saw her in that T-shirt. She had the opportunity to actually stand up for women’s rights but instead did that.

My anger at Watson in terms of scale

Powerfull Men - FloraJO QC et al.
*
*
*
All other men
*
*
*
Rheasilvia Mons Gap
*
*
*
All women who will not call themselves Feminist
*
*
*
Mont Blanc Gap
*
*
*
All not famous women who call themselves Feminist but do f**k all irl
*
*
*
Watford Gap
*
*
*
All Famous Women who are willing to call themselves Feminist - even if not being pure 100% of their public time.

No matter how you define feminism it surely can't include allowing women to say things that are wrong and/or damaging to women and just let them at it because ... well they're women? Feminism has never meant uncritical of anything and everything women do or say.

If Emma Watson (or any other privileged high profile woman) can use her position to highlight problems and help to resolve them, what's not to like? But if she uses her position to promote damaging ideologies then there's nothing in that to like. She is a shero to young girls who admire her as the Hermione Grainger character and then are vaguely aware that she is doing good pro-girls and women work and they run the risk of taking her word as gospel on all issues (believe me I have an 11 year old who is right there).

I think women like Emma, in the public eye, a massive brand making a lot of people a lot of money, are very controlled. They are coached on how to present themselves, what to say, what jobs to take, what interviews to do, what causes to support. And they worry about losing audiences and fans so they often take a bland uncontroversial popular route.

The problem for women isn't "inequality" Tulips, it's oppression. Probably Emma's feminism does chime more with you than it does the women here, if you're using analysis like that.

It also appears, to me, that certain women encourage transwomen because it's flattering. You want to be like me? Wow! And ask me how to do your hair, make up? It's soothing.

Conforming to the patriarchy is something that we're brought up to do, and deciding not to is hard, it's brittle. You encounter opposition. There are no cookies.

Emma Watson's entire life has been spent around people who affirm her. She will never choose to abandon that.

Tulips the definition of what feminism means to you is one I agree with. However, I don't see Emma Watson - with the privilege of her position and her platform - addressing those things in any meaningful way. Her 'activism' consists of empty soundbites. She is a decorative feminist, and the message she gives to other young white women is that feminism is wearing slogan t-shirts, talking about choice, and 'being inclusive'. It's damagingly reductive, especially when presented with A-lister arrogance, and shouldn't go unchallenged.

I think Emma Watson's is a strange kind of privileged that very few people experience. She has been very famous since before she hit puberty. She hasn't experienced a 'normal' life in any sense. She will of course have experienced sexual harassment and probably discrimination but she is very much more in control of her destiny than most women.

She seems to have shown more empathy with people who think they are women but are male than the millions of women and girls who are hugely disadvantaged around the world because of their sex. She should be using her platform to focus on the real issues, given she has an international profile that could make an impact, rather than going for the woke point easy wins.

@Driechdrizzle I knew some one on here would find fault of my post about what feminism means to me! Yes, misogyny is at the core of inequality, absolutely. I missed out the word but I agree it’s core

She could use her voice to call out this bullshit, so could Helen Mirren

Helen Mirren is a joke. She's been banging on about legalising brothels , pro- prostitution for a long time . It's very wearing along with her tedious" ooh look at me, I'm an older woman and I'm still a goer" schtick

No mention of misogyny there Tulips. A glaring omission when you're chiding other women about how they do feminism.

If Emma Watson wants to do something useful, given that she has a worldwide platform, she could start speaking out about the missing millions of girls and women in India and China, which patriarchy deemed not worthy of having lives. At the moment her so-called feminism is packaged and corporatised through the US and Vogue and doesn't address the oppression that women and girls face.

Thank you for asking the question- I enjoyed thinking about this.

You're welcome. And I don't disagree with anything you said.

The problem with someone like Emma Watson is she has a huge platform and she talks about feminism. But the feminism she talks about is damaging to women. Getting your tits out in vogue upholds the patriarchy, it doesn't address it.

Paris Lees has often been discussed on here. Lees upholds the concept that women are a collection of stereotypes, but in Lees' case, incredibly damaging stereotypes. Far worse than the short skirts and wigs that we often see in the ideology. (Often, not always, HQ).

Paris Lees writes in Vice about their sexual exploits. Picking up men in taxis, having five strange men penetrate their every orifice, how empowering it is to cry when you're being fucked, being treated like a piece of meat is hot.

And then claims that they speak on behalf of women. Taking Lees seriously as a mouthpiece for any woman, is seriously damaging. Talking to them about Feminism is risible.

There are a lot of women who quite like transwomen representing women. It's internalised misogyny. A male born woman has more credibility than a biological woman.

And that's why people challenge Emma Watson. It's not because they want to bring her down, they want to bring her up short.

@Datun, I have a feeling that whatever I say feminism is to me will be criticised on this thread because it’s whole premise is to criticise a woman who gives her perspective on feminism. Of course no person owns a definition of feminism so I can only relay my view of it and by no means am I dictating this to others.

To me, feminism is about addressing the structural inequality that permeates our society completely, which is evidenced to greater and lesser extents in different countries, and across different class systems. The structural inequality can be racial, as women in certain minorities may suffer more than others, and it can be class related, as women lacking money and education often face even more structural inequality than others who are financially independent. This inequality manifests itself in unequal pay, second class healthcare for women, sexual harassment, rape and assault, lack of political power, many forms of abuse, and continuing marginalisation. I’m sure there are other examples.

To me, feminism is about identifying these injustices and finding ways to rebalance our society. It is complicated- both the causes and don’t think the solutions are always simple. As I grow older my view of feminism has changed and I now believe sexism is far more deeply entrenched in our society and worldview than I appreciated in my 20s. Back then I probably sounded a lot like Emma Watson.

I say all of this as a privileged white woman. For me personally, my feminist struggle is related to sexism at work and at home. Many women have it much, much worse. However my privilege does not exclude me from feminism and I can still have a voice.

Thank you for asking the question- I enjoyed thinking about this.

I read "identify" as "but in reality am not".

It parodies itself - no additional work is necessary.

I'm also becoming increasingly tired of seeing the word "identify" everywhere. I don't "identify" as a feminist - I am one.

maybe I should join in the spirit of this thread and make lots of comments about why Emma Watson is shallow, privileged, entitled

All of those things are objective facts, though. Why do you think we should not point them out? When someone is taking up disproportionate political space, by virtue of their celebrity status, claiming to be a feminist while supporting some of the most pernicious aspects of patriarchy, this causes problems for all of us, particularly the most vulnerable women.

Also, you have no idea what women on here do in real life in terms of supporting other women or feminist activity, so your digs are misguided.

Feminism is chatting to Paris Lees in that bastion of women’s liberation, Vogue.

To me, feminism is not ...

You've decided what it isn't. What do you think it IS?

I don’t want to gang up on and vilify someone, but it’s reasonable to criticise pseudo feminism that is actually counterproductive. It is galling when someone famous makes a big public deal about being a feminist and promotes guff that doesn’t stand up as any kind of feminism, radical or otherwise.

She always says “feminism is about choice’ and even worse she’s said it’s about “giving women choice” - you only have to think about it for 5 minutes to see the “choice’ definition makes no sense. Plenty of women make appalling misogynistic choices, from carrying out FGM to raising their sons to expect to be waited on, because of internalised misogyny and patriarchy.

Yes having a choice to for example not have children is part of feminist progress, but it’s not the whole point. Feminism is about countering and combating misogyny and patriarchy and gaining equality, and it is about understanding and pointing out structural inequality, not bleating about one actress’s “choice” to get her tits out. As if the fact she chose to do it makes the whole unequal situation ok. Does that mean if a woman chooses to send her daughter for fgm, that’s fine because she’s a woman and it’s her choice? no. She needs to think these things through.

What I don’t understand is if EW wanted to be a feminist trailblazer, why didn’t she do some reading and talk to some feminists and learn more about it? But she still could.

In what way can we ‘bring down’ Emma Watson? She looks pretty up there to me being interviewed in Vogue.

If a celebrity is promoting a vacuous form of non-feminism as feminism to promote themselves and their brand, feminists have a right to say something about it.

Hmmmm... but maybe I should join in the spirit of this thread and make lots of comments about why Emma Watson is shallow, privileged, entitled and definitely not a real feminist. Yes, I feel better and way more feminist now just for thinking all those things. I think I’m definitely helping women now, and certainly doing my bit here on mumsnet to tear down the patriarchy by commenting on the inadequacies of Emma Watson’s feminism. Feels so good to have that off my chest.