Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!

Respectfully adding my vote that Orchid be reinstated.

Moderators are in an impossible situation. Some activists will be satisfied unless FWR (or even all of MN) is gone. It doesn’t matter how tightly you moderate, they want this board gone.

Radical idea: why not tell everyone on both sides to FOH because you’re sick of it.

Write a list of banned words, even if its a mile long, and pin it to the top. Regular users can explain to bewildered visitors why their posts vanished - now that we know deletion messages are not sent, we can step up to fill this gap. This board can be very intimidating for newcomers to post on.

Write a macro that auto-deletes posts containing those specific banned words (sorry everyone!) and then just let the board go.

Do not actively moderate the board. It must be a massive time and cost suck, and everyone on both sides is upset, whatever the mods do.

People will still be upset under this other regime but MN will no longer be expending 80% of costs on a board which generates 20% of income (or whatever).

Once activists realise they can no longer use moderators to control the discussion - yes they will meltdown and it will be nasty, even scary for a while. This is to be expected.

But if they know mods are no longer actively involved, they have no basis to target mods.

When safeguarding is dismantled, vulnerable children are hurt. I saw this first hand growing up in the Church. I am seeing it again now. This is a parenting site, if we don’t discuss it who will?

But MN need to make money and hands-on moderation of this board makes that harder. Hence a set-and-forget approach would help, in my opinion.

It was an excellent response to a straw man argument that no one here made.

Well, there are occasional horrible posts which get reported by FWR regulars and deleted pronto, as they should be. Maybe Justine mentioned that sort of thing more for the benefit of watchers as examples of what should be reported.

Excellent point dreich

I don’t know anyone on the boards who thinks that

(Ive not memorised every thread so i may well have missed something...but thats a fairly big something to miss)

There was also Justine's claim that people think trans people are "weird".

I really don't think that is a point of view that any feminist on FWR would hold. So who is she thinking of?

Like naughty step. Ffs

Why is there a three strikes and you're out policy for FWR? This doesn't happen over the rest of the site does it? It certainly doesn't seem fair - quite the opposite.

It also plays right into the hands of TRAs who want women on Mumsnet who talk about trans, silenced.

I feel disappointed by this response too. I got a deleted recently for being 'uncivil' and the moderator said I had 'implied trans people don't exist' because I used apostrophes around the word transwoman. I did this to highlight the linguistic term transwoman as opposed to transgender or transsexual, because I was making a point about language. It was really odd to be accused of implying they don't exist. Of course trans people exist, that's why we are having this debate. However, by existing, I see trans people as either male or female and identifying as the opposite sex, because I don't support the 'born in the wrong body theory' ie. I'm gender critical. So it looked like I was deleted for having a gender critical viewpoint as opposed to believing in trans ideology.

I was also chastised for pointing out how some transwomen have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, even though this is true.

It felt very much that intention was read in my post that simply wasn't there. That's one of the big problems, is that ill-intention of feminists is assumed. I wrote back to explain this but nobody got back to me.

It does feel like we are being censored and coerced into saying things we don't agree with to avoid being banned.

We are saying that the reporting system is being gamed via offsite organisation using multiple people

Yep...and either they pick on certain posters

Or MNHQ have the weirdest deletion coincidences

One of those mathematical impossibility things

For the record i think its the first one

We don’t allow vexatious reporting and can spot it pretty quickly. Our guidelines make it clear that anyone who repeatedly reports similar types of posts that aren’t worthy of deletion will be suspended.

Hi Becky. Thanks for posting. The above is another failure to understand/take in what we have been saying to you. Just as we did not suggest you guys were coercive controllers but were being used as proxies by coercive controllers, we are not suggesting that single people are sending you hundreds of reports. We are saying that the reporting system is being gamed via offsite organisation using multiple people. We know this to be true because a) the people doing it write blogs about it and b) boast openly about it on Twitter. I can't understand why you refuse to acknowledge this.

It really would be nice to get a response to what we said, not what we haven't said.

I’d certainly be interested to know (being a lifer myself!) if I were mnhq, why given a 14 year posting history and - afaik - a clean record, and then given that Orchid’s opinion on the subject hasn’t changed recently, what has changed to suddenly have her ratchet up three strikes in such a short period of time?

I am very sad to see that the issue of Orchid’s suspension for a post that was so innocuous, that was not intended in any sense that would break the guidelines - far from it - has been completely ignored

This. Especially given that it was a troll thread it happened on.

That was a very disappointing response.

I'm going on a search for somewhere that can host a conversation about womens rights without slowly degrading our right to free speech in order to cover their own backs. We can't reclaim our rights if we can't find our voices and we can't find our voices if we are allowed to be silenced and that is what you are allowing.

I refuse to concede that the safety of women and girls are of lesser importance and should be jepordised for the sake of identity. There are ways in which both groups of people can have equal fair rights and quite honestly it disgusts me that more people aren't considering the implications this will have for women. Ensuring the safety of one vulnerable group by taking away the safety of another is not equality.

Rapists in female prisons are expressing their trans identity. Men beating women at sports, are expressing their trans identity. Men ejaculating into women's underwear at Marks & Spencer's, are expressing their trans identity, according to them.

Indeed. It's a question of context.

I am more confused than before.
How can the mods recognize vexatious reporting by people who brag they have dozens of accounts?
I can't think how many times I have said to an OP 'I am sorry ...' only to find it is banworthy to express sympathy.
Bothsiderism is a stunning position for MN to take with regard to safeguarding.
Poor mouthing and self praise seems inappropriately self serving from a UK company that has monitzed the conflict created by the ongoing effort to strip women and girls of their rights.

Thank you Becky

Thanks - just looked at my pre hands address, but the messages stopped when I changed email.

I still get MN emails when I report a post or if I receive a message from a fellow MNetter but do not get any messages about deletions, so I don't know why I was deleted or how many strikes I'm on - running the risk of a ban, without a fair opportunity to respond or receive a 'warning' that I'm at the last chance saloon.

My round ups etc go to my "pre-Jeff" email address (in my name) as do my insight emails. Report ones go to my "post-Jeff" email address.
If that helps?

Thanks Becky
I have had two deletions in the last six weeks or so and I was not emailed at all.
This includes Inbox and Spam folders. Can you look into this please?

Hi, Becky - I and other posters had posts deleted and accounts suspended without receiving any emails. I checked my email account back then and there were no emails from MN about it. A theory was that you must be signed up to the weekly roundups otherwise you won't get warnings either. Is that right?

My post is now framed in a ban sandwich.

I think that MNHQ response makes matters worse, and I will not be grateful for it.

I doubt there are many users of this board who do not recognise patterns in abuse.

Responding to users pointing out coercively controlling behaviours by declaring that you find the accusation hurtful, and simply denying it is happening, is trite and familiar to far too many women.

It is also worth highlighting, as pp have above, that MN bans content that even Facebook and Twitter allow.

The FWR board on MN is now among the least woman friendly places in cyber space.