What are T***s and why has Cambridge's Student's Union publishes a guide to spotting them?

@jellyslice that group you're mentioning is usually the group entitled 'other'..... Some days I'd like to think I belong to the permanently confused pigeon group but there isn't one! Does than mean we are birdist now?

Equally, choosing not to belong to a group does not mean that you do belong to the group that also does not belong to the group that you have rejected.

🤯 that we even have to spell this out!

@CharlieParley your posts are fantastic

If everyone is equal why are we advocating labels? We have a human right to choose to belong to a group or choose to not belong to a group. If you choose not to belong you can't force others to belong to your 'not belonging to a group' group!!!

Maybe they should make these TERFs wear stars around their arms to identify them better.

I'll just leave this link here in case anyone wants to continue reading from post CharlieParley Tue 05-Nov-19 15:38:56 about halfway down the page.

I've sort of accidentally moved to the trans kids thread

I think we have all done it at one point or another.

I've sort of accidentally moved to the trans kids thread

Yes I am in the uk

Frack

Are you in the UK?

which right wing politicians are trans rights organisations 'courting'? What funding is being given by right wingers?

Also I am worried about the swing to make friends with the right wing. It surely can't be worth the other anti-woman stuff (eg on abortion etc).

Does this sentiment also apply to those funding international trans rights organisations? A surprising number of right wing donors, either themselves males who identify as trans or gay men, have given millions to fund their advocacy.

And right here in the UK trans rights organisations are courting politicians of all parties in the search for allies. As they should in my view, because this is one of the issues that exceed the narrow confines of the right-wing - left-wing dichotomy.

And so is the fight to assert and maintain the existing legal rights of women. I will ally with someone I don't necessarily agree with on many other issues - of course I have my own boundaries and hard limits and in my opinion everyone else has the right to set their own boundaries on cooperation with erstwhile opponents.

Working together across a cultural, political, religious or ethnic divide is how we have been making progress on many other important issues. Trans rights organisations are clearly not willing to abandon such an effective strategy and neither are many women's rights campaigners.

I also wanted to make a point about trans men

If men would wish to invite trans men into their spaces, that is none of my business - I don’t have a say there. The only thing Women have a say in is women’s boundaries and spaces. Despite not particularly feeling i need these spaces personally I am capable of empathy with other women who need them.

And as has been repeated many times, the situation is not symmetrical. Because of male dominance and violence, it cannot be and still ensure equity for women.

It's not giving more information on the subject as it contradicts it.

as far as I can tell (but you can't tell!)

Was the bit in brackets a call and response from the audience or a highlight of contraction?

Well, those accessing the homelessness project and the employment rights support projecr were all 'bio' women as far as I can tell (but you can't tell!) However, I'm sure the people I'm talking about wouldn't have excluded trans women had they approached the projects for support.

"Some of the most active campaigners for women's rights (eg re homeless women and employment rights) I know are trans women. Most of them campaign quietly behind the scenes."

Out of interest, are your friends campaigning for the rights of biological women, or for the rights of those born as and also those who see themselves as women? If the latter, I disagree this is campaigning for women's rights as there is a direct conflict between the two.

Also I am worried about the swing to make friends with the right wing. It surely can't be worth the other anti-woman stuff (eg on abortion etc).

I think you need a dictionary.

I'm not a trans woman, just to be clear. I am a woman with a lot of trans friends though, and I see them hurting because of this trope which aligns them as a group with paedophiles. Some of the most active campaigners for women's rights (eg re homeless women and employment rights) I know are trans women. Most of them campaign quietly behind the scenes.

I also wanted to make a point about trans men. Everyone keeps saying they can hang with the ladies no probs because they are women. But that's not what they want or how they see themselves. If you see them as women but disregard their own feelings on who they are and what they can do, isn't that misogyny?

It’s possible Frack to love adult male humans and embrace their complete humanity while at the same time acknowledging that men have had a number done on them by society, and the result of this is that a sizable minority of humans born male grow up into men that are capable of abusing women and children, and in fact seemingly driven to do it. Any individual man is unlikely to be a threat, nevertheless safeguards exist to reduce this sizable minority’s opportunity to commit abuse.

I don’t find anything “sad” about this, and many men understand this fully - often having experienced male violence themselves as children - so would never dream of pushing their way into female spaces, and stand up for women’s right to defend them. Derrick Jensen has written heartbreakingly on this, try to find his piece called the man box. Our job as reformers, is to be able to name and eventually to fix this problem.

This also explains why, mostly, none of us has any issue with sharing space with female people regardless of How they may identify. Women do not pose a risk to other women, and women do not pose a risk to men.

I understand that trans women have strong feelings about wishing to be seen as women, despite being male. I imagine that is a painful state to be in. But why are women’s feelings about this to be disregarded?

I am trying to work out if your point of view is reasonable. I'm trying to stand outside my echo chamber. I'm trying to listen and empathise.

You said, it's the risk all males pose to all females.
That sounds like a horrible headspace.

Don't be disingenuous, FrackOff, this is standard feminist theory. You're on several threads on the Feminist Chat board and class-based analysis of male violence is par for the course here.

Instead of your aimless jumping from derailment attempts to straw men to exaggeration to unsupported claims and now to speculating about my state of mind, it would be grand if you would simply respond to our arguments.

Male pattern violence does not lend itself to self-emasculation

Simply not accurate.

Men have literally died because they have crawled into wall/floor space in order to spy on women having a poo. This is obviously incredibly debasing. You’re referring to a stereotype which has not borne out: male violence has no correlation with how outwardly “masculine” a male person is (or his personality or Physical size or anything else).

What is required is simply that the man sees the women he abuses as lesser / not fully human and thus he is willing to abuse.

I've never known a pub to cause anyone to drink.

Funny sort of pubs you must be spending time in if they're making people drink. All the ones I've ever been in will let you order a coke and a packet of crisps instead of a pint if you'd like.