Why is comparing Womanface to Blackface offensive?

I do not think that “womanface” exists. It is no different from women wearing “manface” by wearing trousers, no makeup, acting masculine.

I think it is offensive to compare anyone simply going against gender stereotypes in dress, makeup and manner to “blackface” because skin colour/race are not stereotypes in makeup, dress and mannerism.

One final thought - iirc, drag shows do not act out FGM or the murder of baby girls at all, let alone as a hilarious event for men to laugh at.

Blackface (Minstrel shows) did portray the murder of black men and the rape of black women (although black women were portrayed as hyper sexual hence not rape). These events were presented not as tragedy, but comedy. White women laughed along with white men.

If you wish to compare blackface to drag, I’d suggest referring to +UK+ blackface. Black women in the US think you are belittling their ancestors by comparing their murder and rape to white men dressed as white ladies. Which I know is not the intention.

In case I have not been clear. I support any woman who finds drag offensive and wants to critique it, or any other aspect of female oppression.

Women as a class have been, and remain, oppressed based on their sex and it breaks my heart to see white libfems say otherwise.

It is also painful to see black and white feminists fall out on this issue of blackface. However, it doesn’t mean they are enemies (I hope!) as they are still fighting for many of the same things.

Personally I say “macho ma’ams” where I believe appropriate.

Every time you say “W-face” (quite aside from Black feminist critique) - you implicitly associate our word, woman, with the very people fighting to take it away from us. I saw a TRA screenshot a pile of “W-face” references and it seemed to give them a weird enjoyment, despite its intended meaning. So MM works for me.

Antibles
I don't like drag. I find it creepy and unnecessary. However a few drag artists when done up can look like actual women. Maybe that is the appeal for some who like it. I don't know.

I do know that nobody from the black and white minstrel show ever looked like a real black person. Ever. It was always about ridiculing how black people looked. Many people watching it had no contact with black people to counteract that representation. It was never done with affection.

Well, personally I'd be treading very carefully about using anything other than straightforward 'this is mocking, objectifying and enforcing really horrendous stereotypes about women, and in a world where women are stilled raped, killed and generally oppressed with impunity, I think that's punching down and isn't right'.

I know analogies can be powerful - we're all familiar with Barracker's brilliant use of the Rohypnol one. I'm not even making any pronouncements about not using this analogy, because, who the fuck am I, really. I'm just saying, I get the objection, and I understand it, and think I shall take it on board in future. Because specific women have raised an issue they find difficult and I act according to my conscience, which is all any of us can do.

Agree with Barracker.

Misogyny is the oldest prejudice. Males dominating, hurting and killing females has doubtless been around since before there even were any different human skin colours.

Black men are as good at misogyny as any other group of males.

I'm not being told I can't use a word that draws a very neat and apt parallel between two forms of mockery of historically oppressed groups.

If anyone wants to say oh no drag is done with humour and affection, well the same could be said of the British black and white minstrel show in its day.

But pointing out similarities to blackface often does make it clear to some people. Are we not to do so, or is it the use of the word?

It's not about forbidding speech. Not for me, anyway. It's just about saying "Yeah, I can see how that causes more problems in this context than furthers our argument. I'll use a different means of explaining this point."

I guess I'm just motivated here by someone pointing out something I hadn't seen and adjusting my own behaviour. Much like when the Transwidows pointed out how it was pushing them out of feminism when we lionized the 'good trans' who were their husbands, so I stopped making Hayton a big deal.

"I won't use the term 'womanface' because it's an appropriation"

Crikey.
When you elevate offence of women using the WORDS woman and face, over the actual ACT of men WEARING a costume of womanhood, and the 'appropriation' you care more about and condemn is the former, not the latter, I think your priorities are wrong.

Woman and face are my words to use, not possessed by others for me to be accused of appropriation.

I don't accept the policing, silencing and chilling rules from anyone, regarding what language I may or may not use to describe an aspect of women's oppression.
Not from TRAs and not from feminists.

The utter reach required in a woman telling women they may not use women and face juxtapositioned to describe the offence of men literally painting themselves with a woman face - because women haven't been killed in sufficient quantities

What is the term for when men dress as women as a way to exert control, dominate or humiliate us??
Because we definitely need one, because it's definitely a thing.

I am tempted to put a very specific man's name here, in response, but it would probably get deleted. But think pro extreme-porn campaigner turned television handicrafts enthusiast...

And, I really instinctively dislike not agreeing with Barracker, but I do here.

Drawing attention to similarities between the two isn't like saying they were the same though. I can just about accept not using the word womanface but we shouldn't be forbidden from drawing parallels. That really is controlling speech and is not a good thing.

I don't mind not using the term woman face but I don't think drag is the word for it.

To me drag means playing with gender in any way, lots of drag queens play with masculinity now and there are drag kings too. Dragging up can also just mean taking on another character.
Some of drag is very offensive but that's when I particular thing is happening and that's when they are using it to demean or appropriate women.

What is the term for when men dress as women as a way to exert control, dominate or humiliate us??
Because we definitely need one, because it's definitely a thing.

I don't think women are being told to shut up about an element of their oppression by being asked not to use the phrase 'woman face'. There is already a term that can be used - drag - and we can feel free to complain about that should we choose.

Blackface comes from an era when there weren't any positive representations of black people in society. However demeaning some may consider drag the same can't be said about representations of women. The category of woman has always featured a range of images - from the demeaned to the widely respected.

Also there are many women who like watching drag (not me) - perhaps because they know it doesn't represent how women are seen by everyone in society. They find it funny. No-one could ever say the same about blackface as the representations of black people in society have been so partial and insulting for so long.

I can see why it is offensive to use terms that put the two on a par with each other.

Karabair I think it’s appalling and abhorrent that the drag performer you mentioned, said and did those things.

I personally find drag offensive and I’d never take my child to “drag library storytelling” which seems particularly awful - nor do I condone “child drag stars” which I think should be banned.

Is it offensive to compare yellowface with blackface? Given that there isn't the same history of lynching and slavery, that is.

I’ve not heard of evergreen college, but thanks for engaging with my comments

And of course women’s oppression can be discussed ... far out

I don’t know any Black feminists in the UK who are fine with the comparison but I only know a couple. I’m interested to hear from more as I appreciate the cultural context is different, the systematic, institutional rape and murder did not occur.

Yes I’m well aware that most women in the world are not white or western. But people who link drag to Blackface are white and western (it seems)

Just like the ones who say “TWAW like BWAW!” and get offended if black women object

I absolutely do think some men use dressing up as women as a way to perpetrate violence and dehumanise them.

Just look at sissy porn.

It's not as overt as blackface but there are definitely elements of it there.

Some men use dressing up as a woman to humiliate themselves so they can get off on it sexually, because women are there to be fucked. They are the lowest thing it's possible to be.

I'm happy to be told I'm missing something by black women and I'll listen to them and not use the analogy again but I do think that some men use it as an act of violence.

But gay men do it so it's not. Or something.

I won't use the term 'womanface' because it's an appropriation and it doesn't feel quite accurate either. I agree with everything you say there Fraggling.

Not a single person has addressed Parkie and Kenny Everett calling women "Stupid c*nts" whilst he dresses as a woman with massive fake breasts and showing his underwear. Everybody OK with that then? I guess it was a while ago.

Personally, I don't think it's a great thing for US understanding of race and ways of dealing with racism to be exported, it's not like the US is a bastion of best practice!

I really like this point.

The idea that dehumanising women is not a part of the mechanism through which we have always been oppressed is cockeyed as well.

Many men don't really see women as full human beings. In some countries this is codified in law. In many countries it is socially encoded so eg in UK rape of women and girls over about 12 is essentially legal.

Dehumanising us is essential. And presenting women as 2d caricatures is dehumanising, how can it not be.

I never said I love this comparison.

You are putting words in people's mouths.

Thanks bemoremagdalen and mrsbert

A lot of black feminists had “GC” in their bio and no longer do, and it’s not because their beliefs changed

It’s because when Blackface has actual, historical links to the murder of your great great uncle or the gang rape of your grandma

(because Blackface did not only mock: it dehumanised Black people and low-key legitimised their murder and rape by portraying it in a funny way)

It is so exhausting trying to explain, again and again and again

That you can critique drag, in all its awfulness, without bringing the pain of Blackface into it

Only for white feminists to say “okay so you don’t like us weaponising your historical suffering in this way... but we loooooove this comparison and won’t stop using it.”

It's not a competition.

And yes men ' dressing up' as women to take the piss out of us, trivialise our lives, mock our bodies etc is pretty bad as oh look men have oppressed women forever and they do all sorts of shit to us all over the world every day.

The English gallivanted around the world wreaking hideous atrocities all over the place.

I don't understand why this means that women's oppression, as a discrete and actual global long term thing, can't be discussed.

It seems very USA centric tbh. Your history is not global history. Fucking awful things have been done to all sorts of people by all sorts of other people in loads of organised ways forever.

I read that post as you comparing and finding women's often brutal oppression pretty much everywhere and as long as anyone can remember, not so bad.

I have not compared anything. You made that comparison and said it can't be made as weekend oppression isn't so bad.

And then followed up by saying that it's not the same as white women can be fucking awful too. Well fair enough but newsflash most of the women in the world are not white western women.