Why is comparing Womanface to Blackface offensive?

Just a thought on those screenshots - blackface being designed to dehumanise but drag doesn't shape society's view of women - drag doesn't need to, because that view was shaped, that effort put into dehumanisation, rather a lot longer ago and to great effect.

They don't need drag to get society on board with dehumanising white women sufficiently to ensure no one gives a shit when we're raped or beaten or pimped out or punished as faulty domestic appliances. Society's already on board with that.

White women caricatured as subhuman and exploitable is so rife in western white society, that most people don't even notice it. It's that normalised.

I suspect some of the defensive feeling on white women's part in this conversation is because when black women (entirely justifiably) say 'white people' it ignores the fact that they do it to us too. They've been doing it to us for millennia. And we can't get the individual white women who benefit from attaching themselves to the oppressor class to give a shit about us either.

What American discussion group?

There have been various public discussions online over the last few months.

I would not have raised it on MN but when someone else did, I had to add my 2 (million) cents worth because the black feminists in the OP aren’t here to defend themselves

Drag is used as a tool to perpetuate the subjugation of woman it is not harmless poking fun at stereotypes. In our current society womanface is just as damaging as blackface, except one is no longer allowed and the other is celebrated as stunning and brave. Fuck that.

Hatred

America hates black people, but it hates women more

How does America feel about black women?

Those comments are insightful and interesting, but the rejection of comparison with drag is poorly argued.

Why are we even talking about this! It turns out as recent comments state, this is an internal disagreement within an American discussion group. So not US identity politics/grievance studies/ignorant cultural imperialists pushing their views on the wider world as implied earlier.

I feel that some outsiders have read these tweets and are bending over backwards to accommodate an America-centric world view and show black American feminists how allied they are. Chomsky would be laughing bitterly to see it.

sittinonthefloor
You said just what I was thinking. Lets not forget that black men’s sex often gives him power over white women.
I’m a white British woman and I was living in the states in 2008 when Obama and Hillary Clinton were battling in the primaries. So much talk of the symbolism of a black president (quite rightly) but in secret, between me and my dh, I wondered if the symbolism of a woman president was lost on many Americans. I stand by what I said then - America hates black people, but it hates women more.

"the other symbolises rebellion against heteronormative society".

Except it doesn't.

To agree with this you have to:

1. Ignore the long history of men dressing up as women that predates the 70's club scene.
2. Accept without question the idea that drag is a rebellion when it reinforces the idea that particular kinds of behaviour and dress are not appropriate for men.

I really disagree with the comments about drag in those screenshots.
Drag is so much more than rebellion against heteronormativity.
I have never seen drag representing “strong women” or admiring women for anything other than in a sexual way.

.

Insightful comments

Blackface was an active propaganda tool against black people in the US to stoke up violence toward them.

But '**face' is also used as a general term to cover all racist caricatures in the arts and entertainment, including those that are unrelated to the US.

I think it's fair to make the argument that 'blackface' is a very particular term that should only be used to refer to a particular historical event, and that to generalise the usage of ' face' is to water down its meaning - but then logically it is also wrong to use phrases like 'yellow face' and 'jew face' to identify one dimensional caricatures, and no examples of 'black face' exist outside the US.

'Drag doesn’t need to “stir up” hatred against women : it simply reflects the hatred that already exists.'

This.

I'm actually completely unfamiliar with blackface, but wasn't it a form of entertainment (as ridicule)? How in this context can it have been an "active propaganda tool"? Were the Ku Klux Klan funding it? Were they performing it? Were Jim crow politicians organising its broadcast? Genuinely confused.

Drag on the other hand while insulting, is not being used to stir up hatred against women and justify acts of violence against us

Drag doesn’t need to “stir up” hatred against women : it simply reflects the hatred that already exists.

fraggling, well, as you appear to have missed my original response to you, I'll c+p it so I don't have to type it out again.

Drag is entertainment based on stereotypes, often negative ones, of women. Blackface was entertainment based on horrible caricatures of black people

Drag is horrible caricatures
How can people not see that.

You've misunderstood my post, which is probably my fault for not constructing my parallel there using exactly the same terms. I agree with you. They both use hideous caricatures of the targets of the parody.

My point was that the purpose is not the same. Blackface was an active propaganda tool against black people in the US to stoke up violence toward them. DragRace is deeply horrible mockery, but it isn't being used to justify violence against women.

As I said, the tweets picturing hanged women and vaguely 'feminized' men with weapons are a much closer analogy.

Are we allowed to point out that women don’t only experience misogyny from white men. My observation is that men are more misogynistic to women from other backgrounds (colour, class) there’s a greater sense of other and it’s easier to dehumanise them cf Rotherham. The worst misogyny I’ve experienced is from white ‘working class’ men and very wealthy, older white men. Also HUGE amounts travelling in Mexico, India. I’ve rarely experienced it from men of a similar educational background (regardless of colour), colleagues etc.
I think I’ll continue to use the term ‘womanface’ in uk discussions but not with US based people. The parallel in the uk between the black & white minstrels and the bbc drag show prog is so jarring - it’s a powerful and effective use of the term imo.

'As socialised white males in the 1st instance had/have they been subjected to institutional racism, microaggressions, stereotyping, workplace and educational discrimination? No - they haven't.

& numerous white women haven't experienced any of that either.'

Racism >> see Irish posters comment earlier
As for the rest, I don't understand how a feminist can make those claims. My industry has a pay Gap of 40+%. Women were vastly over represented in those hit by austerity. And way more likely to live in poverty. No microagressions? From men? In the UK? Micro and plenty of overt too, irrespective of class. Yes women with additional axes of oppression have a worse time but the idea that educated white women get no shit is bollocks. It's just as illegal for her to get an abortion in ni. She'll experience Street harassment and be at risk of partner violence etc etc

You need to stop downplaying the real issues that women have, to prove a point.

'Drag is entertainment based on stereotypes, often negative ones, of women. Blackface was entertainment based on horrible caricatures of black people'

Sober now.
Your statement still says that drag is not caricature.
Telling me off for having a drink won't change the words you wrote.

You were very clear and I strongly disagree. Take another look at the Kenny Everett video. That's not a horrible caricature. Well ok I don't know what you see then.

Read a novel on this a while ago Valerie Martin Property. About slavery and the position of women in that society at the time not an easy read but very good won the orange prize a while ago

The word that sprang into my mind to use about Kenny Everett or the depraved abortion guy was ‘body snatchers’. I think it better fits what they’re up to than ‘woman face’ and contains the macabre element which is present when men do this to women. I’m sure it could be modified to make it even more accurate.

It’s ridiculous to call black American women ‘handmaidens’ or cultural imperialists, for objecting to the use of this word. Male supremacy is also white supremacy in the west, and black American women are subject to both. We know words matter, so it might be worth listening to them when they’re explaining the significance.

Maybe 'yellowface' is a more apt analogy, as I don't think it was a crude propaganda tool to allow and encourage violence, but I don't know much about it's history, and I don't think it will catch on, tbh.

I think we all know what we mean by "womanface".

It's only men who object to it. And handmaidens.

That's clearly not true. This has not been a discussion between handmaidens and radfems. I'm a fucking radfem, and I personally think that it's not a helpful term wrt drag which is where I've seen it most used, but I can see it may be more appropriate when talking about actual threats of violence by blokes performing femininity.

I'm not trying to 'ban' a term, I've just read the critiques, think they make a fair point, and come to my own conclusions about what I will say in the future. I don't really understand why, when calmly explaining that, I am getting long rants about women's oppression in return, as though I'm not actually a proper feminist for listening to the perspective of some specific women and adjusting my conclusions accordingly.

To be clear, of course not all black people care about blackface / drag .. Nor do all white people. I have friends who love drag

A few Black radfems put their view out there to GC feminists, that’s all. Its more relevant in shared spaces if you’re in them, as opposed to FWR

I support the White Wednesday women. Truly courageous and inspiring 🌹

The discourse iirc was from black, radical feminists, using class based analysis, who represented only their own views

Calling them “US cultural imperialists” is ridiculous hyperbole. Black rad feminists are deboosted, suspended and Twitter jailed like no one else on earth.

People can agree to disagree - it’s not the end of the world and doesn’t mean the outreach was a waste or failure.

So in these debates because US cultural imperialists are really dominant in laying down their views, we think that it's the dominant view or if we don't follow it we're not respecting their experience.

The best parallel, if I may make one, is how nowadays we can't publicly express support for Iranian women activists without being told hijabs are a choice choice and it's islamophobic to show solidarity with these women.