Why is comparing Womanface to Blackface offensive?

But I also see the parallels between women asking men for consideration and being denied it, and black women asking white women for consideration and being denied it.

Exactly this. I've seen black women co-opted by the TRAs ("we are women as black women are women"), so I've stopped using woman-face as an expression as well.

This isn't some able-bodied rando saying 'blind spot' is offensive to the visually impaired. It's a consistent message from multiple black feminists.

I have previously used the womanface / blackface comparison, because it was useful to me to get the point across.

But I also see the parallels between women asking men for consideration and being denied it, and black women asking white women for consideration and being denied it. So I don’t use it any longer. I tend to use the - admittedly not as snappy - “male performance of womanhood” instead.

I don’t want to be to black women what misogynistic men are to me. And that is not for one second to minimise the oppression of women by men that still is far too prevalent today. It’s just on me to find a way to discuss an aspect of that without causing harm to those who should be my allies in the GC cause.

I’m not aware of causative links between drag and violence against women (if you are, please share). I only know of two drag-adjacent murders, both of gay men.

Perhaps this is because when you are thinking of drag you are thinking of Ru Paul in New York, not Widow Twankey in Margate?

I think there is a causative link between both racist and sexist stereotypes depicted on UK television in the 1970's and 80's in the UK and racist and sexist violence in the UK. I think there is a large group of people who cannot bear the idea that a woman or non-white person should hold any power, and comedy that relies on one dimensional stereotypes makes racism and sexism permissible.

Again, I can understand the argument that the generalisation of '**face' is offensive because 'blackface' refers to a very specific historical event.

However, drag was not invented in New York clubs in the 1970's and there is long history of racism outside the US.

Haha, I think we both fall in that category 2BthatUnoticed. You're welcome, and ditto.

We do need an accurate word for six foot five males with pink handbags, screaming "It's ma'am" at cowed shop assistants. Or males claiming they have periods or can breastfeed. It isn't "womanface' though.

ova that “show any evidence” was to any readers, not you specifically

karabair thanks for all you’ve added on the thread.. and I thought I was the handmaiden, not you!

Ovahere thank you for highlighting causation.

There are causative links between Blackface (watched by white women and men) and the rape and murder of black women and men (by white men).

I’m not aware of causative links between drag and violence against women (if you are, please share). I only know of two drag-adjacent murders, both of gay men.

(To be clear, I do not like drag. I find it offensive and demeaning and think drag story time and child drag stars needs to stop.)

In the absence of causative links though, “Drag causes the deaths of women [so equating it to Blackface is valid]”

Sounds a bit like:

“T**Fs cause the deaths of TW [so screaming at women attending a meeting is valid]

An emotive but (as yet) un-evidenced claim, made to justify an action planned (even if other interested parties object).

I feel ridiculous trying to drop my ‘credentials’ in there but I’ve been called a handmaiden on this thread and I don’t want it to happen again.

Blackface was used to recruit for the Klu Klux Klan (see Birth of a Nation). Claiming that porn is worse is incorrect and I speak as someone who has been anti-porn for thirty years and actively campaigns against it.

As has already been said, blackface was used to incite horrific violence against black people and to legitimise past violence, including 18 million dead in the transatlantic slave trade. Pornography and blackface are on a par, although again not identical.

Porn is the visual capture of what is now global, industrial scale sexual and physical abuse of other human beings. It's much worse than blacking up or donning drag.

Blackface and womanface are both mimicking of the appearance of another historically oppressed group. There are clear parallels and the term 'womanface' made the offensiveness of drag far more visible to me and rightly so, I now think.

Women are currently being trafficked into porn and prostitution. This is a manifestation of actual modern slavery. (Skin colour no impediment.)

I have a general feeling that making analogies to other Bad Stuff is not necessarily the most useful way to argue that something is bad. I see this line of argument a lot with trans rights stuff related to gay rights stuff and remain unconvinced.

So, I tend to agree with this. It's not a rigorous argument, because it's inevitably the case that there are some important nuances or even more significant differences, and those may in fact be important.

I think though that sometimes as part of a more careful discussion, a comparison like this can be useful. It's really just saying "in this way, this thing is similar to that thing" which can help point the listener to the concept the speaker is trying to express.

There seems to be two meanings of the term "blackface". One is specifically related to the minstral shows and the other is related to any using the skin of another as a removable costume...

Is this the problem?

Agree with PP in that porn is more closely analogous to the minstral shows and drag more analogous to the second, less specific, meaning.

I have a general feeling that making analogies to other Bad Stuff is not necessarily the most useful way to argue that something is bad. I see this line of argument a lot with trans rights stuff related to gay rights stuff and remain unconvinced.

I think it's not necessary for the condemnation of drag as problematic to women to draw the comparison with blackface at all.

The key thing for me is that you can draw a straight line (causation) between blackface propaganda in the US and the murder/rape of black people

However this is not the only argument commonly made about why blackface is a problem.

It's extremely common at the moment for people to say, including many in the black community, that blackface or any kind of mimicking of another race for any reason is problematic because it is inherently dehumanising, making a costume out of other people's skin.

I think the idea of womanface, applied either to drag or gender ideology generally, is actually coming out of that idea.

However, I have not heard people asking that those making such arguments stop using the word, or that they stop using the term brownface as in the Trudeau business.

But if the reason is really that blackface should be reserved specifically to refer to the minstrel shows and similar kinds of purposes and outcomes, I should be hearing some voices in the black community asking people to stop using the language for those other things, or extending the idea of blackface to any use in theatre etc. I'm not really hearing that request, much less claims that it is offensive.

A couple of black feminists expressing a view on Twitter is not cultural imperialism

No, but then if that's what's going on, what to make of the claim that it's what black women think so everyone else just needs to listen and accept that it's the case, which seems to have been where the conversation began?

I don't know that people do this on purpose, but again and again I see issues where a particular group is said to have a certain viewpoint, particularly about something being offensive, as if it is unanimous or so nearly so that it's the same, and the idea is that because this particular community with the lived experience etc agrees, we must accept their view or else we don't respect that community, are oppressing them or something like that.

But it's so very rare that this kind of unity is actually the case.

In respect to blackface being propaganda designed to dehumanise an entire group of people I feel that pornography is perhaps the closest comparator.

I would agree with that.

No, it’s left wing radfems responding to UK people using US black face as a tool, in a way they feel is inaccurate and disrespects the many black women raped and some killed, and many black men killed, which had causative links to minstrelsy (blackface)

The key thing for me is that you can draw a straight line (causation) between blackface propaganda in the US and the murder/rape of black people.

Whilst drag (in particular modern interpretations of drag) undoubtably is sexist and contributes to an overall misogynistic society it's more nuanced in it's origins and I don't think you can draw the same straight line from drag to murder and rape.

In respect to blackface being propaganda designed to dehumanise an entire group of people I feel that pornography is perhaps the closest comparator.

There might not be the imitation aspect at play (bar the more niche category of TG porn) but arguably it is mass propaganda designed to dehumanise and debase females and we can also draw a straight line from violent pornography to the rape and murder of women.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/kim-wall-peter-madsen-snuff-porn-submarine-inventor-submarine-swedish-journalist-a8322076.html

Missed out a bit - what is being called 'womanface' here is not analogous to blackface. There's a huge key part missing that an analogy with 'blackface' simply doesn't cover.

I'm really not getting why black radical feminists are being accused of "cultural imperialism" when blackface is an American term. Black Americans were the target of blackface, they have every right now to have opinions on how the term is used politically and in what context -

also black-face, 1868 (the phrase itself seems not to have been common in print before 1880s) in reference to a performance style, originated in U.S., where (typically) non-black performers used burnt cork or other theatrical make-up to blacken their faces, from black (adj.) + face (n.). The thing itself is older, from the 1830s.

The old-time black face song-and-dance man has disappeared from the stage. At one time no minstrel or variety company was complete without a team of these stage favorites; and who can ever forget their reception at every performance? It made no difference whether they represented the genteel or the plantation negro, they were always welcome, and as a rule were the big feature of the bill. [William E. "Judge" Horton, "About Stage Folks," 1902]

Blackface isn't a british term, it's American. In the context it's being used here (not drag, but males actually claiming to be women), it's inaccurate. White men who blacked up for the stage or screen in the US were never claiming to be black themselves, so why not find another term that actually describes what is going on here?

"Stop being divisive" - how is it divisive to acknowledge that one's perspective on an issue is informed by one's experience of class membership? We're not a hive mind so division on issues is entirely to be expected. It'd be weirder if white British feminists (of various stripes) and black American radical feminists uniformly agreed, surely? We're from quite distinct cultures after all.

And yes, I do look at America as a whole in a manner reminiscent of Doctor Frankenstein - we exported the psychology of a particularly virulent strain of patriarchy along with the petty criminals and the planet and all its women are suffering for it. We caught it from the Middle East a very long time ago; I've no idea of the skin colour of the tribes in question.

Tyro just to be clear , those Twitter responses from white GC , were in response to black radfems’ critique of the black face / drag stuff

Not “agree to disagree” but “stop being divisive!” Almost like some GC are welcoming of input on shared causes (TRAs etc) but when black women raise their own cause, no one wants to hear

This is a blind spot for GC

Oldcrone it was in response to undertones thru the thread that Americans are trying to police us / silence us / impose Their Will !

No, it’s left wing radfems responding to UK people using US black face as a tool, in a way they feel is inaccurate and disrespects the many black women raped and some killed, and many black men killed, which had causative links to minstrelsy (blackface)

I’m not American or UK. You are both pretty obnoxious in terms of thinking your country is the centre of civilisation and forcing your culture on others - maybe they inherited it from you?

You're right. The British do this too. I suppose I notice it more from Americans because we're on the receiving end. And America is much more powerful than Britain now.

A couple of black feminists expressing a view on Twitter is not cultural imperialism, get a grip.

If that's a reply to me, I was talking about American attitudes in general, not this particular instance. Like in this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3703610-Cast-Off-Diversity-wars-are-raging-in-the-knitting-world

I’m not American or UK. You are both pretty obnoxious in terms of thinking your country is the centre of civilisation and forcing your culture on others - maybe they inherited it from you? 🤔

A couple of black feminists expressing a view on Twitter is not cultural imperialism, get a grip. She was responding to UK people who, online:

• use imagery from US minstrel
• images of old US tins with Blackface
• compare drag / WF / to “Blackface, which in the States... etc

Black women have been entirely collegiate about this, particularly a few months ago when it first came up. Why are they being portrayed as the baddies here, WTH is going on?

It sounds like Blackface has a very different history in the UK. It is not linked to enslavement, rape and murder and Black English people do not still suffer from it.

Hence in the UK, the comparison is both effective and not offensive to anyone - so that is GREAT!

This is a solution - UK people could just stop using US blackface in comparisons, and use UK blackface instead.

Problem solved! Deal?

It seems that for Americans it does have a very specific meaning, but for the rest of the English-speaking world it has a broader or different meaning. But Americans can't tell us that because that's what 'blackface' means to them, we can't use it to mean something different. It's our language too, and we shouldn't have our language policed by Americans.

Well, on the one hand they make it specific to that tradition, and on the other they use it to criticise things that have zero to do with that tradition, like Black Peter as someone mentioned above.

TBH, I even find the discussion of the minstrel tradition is pretty unnuanced. You only ever hear about it being a deliberately offensive thing. I only knew Al Jolson for example as a promoter of racism through that medium, and only found out recently from someone who happened to live in the same community that he did that he was very involved in the civil rights movement from as early as the first decades of the 20th century, and was respected by the black community where he lived. Which suggests people's feelings might actually have been more mixed about such depictions then compared to now.