"Gross, reductive naturalising maternal industrial complex"

Either not realising or not caring how insulting that is to the said group.

I think it's because on some level they know that what they're saying is a load of old cobblers, honestly. So they try to connect their demands to an actual disadvantaged group to make them sound more legit.

it's surely better for adoptive parents, who are often genuinely erased in discourses of this kind.

Speaking for my people, we've had a chat and we're fine thanks. Now fuck off.

Why do they always need to co-opt the needs of some other group to justify their misogyny? Black women, people with DSDs, menopausal women, adopters. Every time an argument is shot down there is some other insane false equivalence.

As a woman who has chosen not to have children I am 100% OK with the assumption that it is women who get pregnant and give birth, because it's true and also I am not the most selfish person in the world.

This. Completely.

"And, finally, it's surely better for adoptive parents, who are often genuinely erased in discourses of this kind."

Yes as an adoptive parent when I go to my mothers group anytime the talk turns to pregnancy and birth I smugly remind everyone that “not everyone is a biological parent” and they should say “the process of becoming a parent” as that’s more inclusive. Anyone talking about their own lived experiences of pregnancy and birth is clearly doing it AT me to hurt my feelings and no other reason.

Except that I don’t, because I’m not a massive narcissistic bell-end.

There's also a difference between stating the fact that breastfeeding gives baby the best start in life and asking a mother to consider it for that reason in a setting where this is appropriate (prenatal appointment for instance) and judging a woman for not breastfeeding, especially when you don't have the slightest idea about her life. I've met plenty women who couldn't breastfeed for a variety of reasons (not all medical) and am always mindful of that.

And some women mistake any raising of the issue at all as implied or direct criticism. Which is clearly not the case. I think this is a touchy subject for most of us, because whatever we have chosen or been forced to do, we get judged by some.

@Pota, I'm not pretending it doesn't happen, I did say I know it happens but that I haven't experienced it ( I'm talking about direct, to my face criticism). Just trying to balance out the narrative that women judge and criticise all the time. I have had more comments from men ( thanks Dad for those comments about baby DS3 being too fat!). I still think self- criticism is a big problem, women need to be kinder to themselves.
As for the articles criticising women, that kind of article grabs attention in a way that more reasonable ones wouldn't hence the runaway success of The Daily Fail.
I obviously don't disagree with you about Dads spending too much time at work or on hobbies, and I have read many many threads discussing exactly that on Mumsnet.

I'm in no way a bio essentialist, I have several friends who don't have children through choice and circumstance and I have never started a conversation with them implying their lives are lacking because I genuinely don't think they are, I envy them sometimes, I don't know if they envy me, I wouldn't be crass enough to ask.

Well Kate Manne’s claim that males are females is clearly idiotic. But the statements that academics shouldn’t be allowed to make sweeping statements- that was one woman’s personal experience and she is entitled to say what she thinks, regardless of her profession. And you are being very disingenuous indeed if you pretend that there is no such thing as women being shamed for not breastfeeding, for having a drink during pregnancy, for working too much, for asking the state for financial support. That’s the very essence of gender ideology and what I thought we were all fighting against. If you want articles, they exist in the thousands about how women are often shamed rather than supported. Or look at the threads on the rest of the site where others feel the need to weigh in with opinions about breastfeeding and other things. Just watched a clip of a celebrity who had to have an emergency c-section because the baby’s heart rate dropped and she was told she was too posh to push. Fucking hell. And those judgements come from the media but they often come from other women. Maybe from men too, but unsolicited advice on what’s best for babies tends to come from other women.

Kate Manne and Alison Phipps have taken the wrong way to tackle it but biological essentialism needs to be tackled if women are to have equality. Why don’t we ask dads to be if they plan to give up work or go part time? Why don’t we talk about how dads are selfish if they spend too long at work?

As a woman who has chosen not to have children I am 100% OK with the assumption that it is women who get pregnant and give birth, because it's true and also I am not the most selfish person in the world.

Removing the association between women and pregnancy/birth is only going to make it harder to fight for women's rights in relation to "procreative issues". There was already a judgement against a woman who was sacked over her needing facilities to pump and/or breastfeed at work because "men can do that too". If the link between womanhood and female biology continues to be erased we'll be seing a lot more of that.

Attempting to undermine "woman" as a legal and socially recognized category that means "belonging to the group that menstruates for a good part of their life, goes through menopause, and may get pregnant and need time of work related to that" is a supremely selfish act and nope, sorry, I will not be providing comforting headpats and soothing "yes, dear, you're much more important than all those boring, unspecial and unbrave women who acknowledge their reproductive biology" bollocks.

and yes, when I cocked up breastfeeding thoroughly with DS1, pretty much the only person expressing any judginess was me!

patriarchy sets women against each other innit? women win crumbs of power and approval by enforcing patriarchal standards on other women

I must just be lucky I guess, I know it happens but I haven't experienced it directly but I don't think it's universal to experience judgement. I think it's interesting that academics are Willing to make sweeping statements based on anecdotes on social media in a way that would not stand in an academic paper.

Yeah but there are plenty of women who are very judgemental and hospital staff etc who accuse women of ‘not trying’ and then people on the internet who say that you’re not giving the baby the right start in life. People come out with all sorts of shit and think they are entitled to because someone’s had a baby. They will think it’s their business to ask their work colleague whether she plans to breastfeed and roll their eyes if she says no and to give unsolicited opinions about what age kids should go to nursery. I know countless women like that who think that they have a god given right to weigh in on other people’s private lives (also to ask whether other women are planning to have babies, the right age to have a baby, whether someone is in a relationship). I don’t doubt Alison has experienced that. However, the solution is to challenge gendered norms, not to say that men are women.

I just belatedly commented on that Alison Phipps post about breastfeeding, basically pointing out that in my experience women judge themselves and other women rush to reassure rather than judge, at least that's been my experience IRL, even with my mother and MIL ( threads about weaning and controlled crying on Mumsnet are an exception !)

Kate Manne is not stupid. Her book shows that she gets the issues. It blatantly contradicts everything she says on social media. But she obviously feels that she would prefer to appease the wokebeards than actually stand up for what she believed in when she wrote the book. She comes across as an idiot and a parody account but I wonder whether she genuinely deep down believes what she is saying.

Classic cool-girl syndrome. Reminds me of Allison Phipps, another woke academic in the UK. She posted something recently saying that when she had her children, she was shamed for not breastfeeding. As a result, she feels that she has more in common with trans women than ‘cis’ women who shamed her for not being woman enough.

But there is maybe a little bit to it. We need to respect women’s choices re breastfeeding and going back to work. Biological essentialism is no better than trans activism.

Yes women are very selfish it's true.

Yeah, what is it with the group of people who do 90% of all reproductive labor ‘wanting to be at the center’ of discussions on reproductive labor and rights for that group of people who do 90% of reproductive labor?

Bloody narcissists

There was a strand of second wave feminism that rejected motherhood and looked forward to the growing babies in tanks and then raising them communally phase of human society. Understandably it didn't really grow strong roots but I sense it is an idea growing again (not amongst those called radical feminists now) but amongst those who wish to de-power women by separating motherhood from biology, the opposite of what the second wavers meant...I think...

'Being inclusive around all procreative activities is better'

So that includes fucking. Does the person who wrote that even realise the implications.

The other bizarre thing about the book is that I recognised in her writing many of the ideas of second wave feminism from books I read at the time.

But there are no citations at all of second wave academic literature as far as I can see in her (quite extensive) bibliography. It's as if second wave thinking never existed, and she is being terribly clever at being the first one to think of all these great ideas about misogyny.

Either incredibly ignorant or incredibly dishonest. Or maybe a bit of both.

The more you try to placate those who want to believe their bodies don't designate a biological sex the more boundaries they find that they want removed

Oh and note too the obvious and very sad conclusion of the above: they don't believe it. They don't believe it themselves and they don't believe others believe it either, or there wouldn't be this never ending pursuit of any word, any symbol, any place that for a minute threatens that so very fragile illusion.

This is crying for the moon.

The liberal impulse is therefore misplaced here, unless we want to get stuck feeding the need-monster forever.

Yes. This. Exactly.

The more language bending you feed that need-monster the more it demands, haven't you noticed this? The more you try to placate those who want to believe their bodies don't designate a biological sex the more boundaries they find that they want removed - regardless of the impact on the 99% of the population not experiencing these issues.

Stop flapping about ever expanding reactions to symptoms and look at the root cause: what is causing this neediness, and how do you help that liberal impulse to shift to something kind, calm and firm involving boundaries. You know, like maternal people do, day in and day out.

She's pregnant and nearing birth? I wish her all the best, and I hope she has a good strong network of females around her when she needs them. It's pretty much impossible to understand some of these things without having experienced them, I think.

gross, reductive, naturalizing MIC (maternal industrial complex)."

Having struggled to feed, and with a lot of support, succeeded, and eventually gone on to be a peer supporter, and learned a little about breastfeeding and the iniquitous practices of the formula industry, this is upsetting.

I don't think I can comment without saying something horrible.

Thanks, RedToothbrush, for expressing it more eloquently than I am able to.

Her book is great. And as kesstrel notes, many sections of it could have been directly written about the trans movement. The trans movement was the #1 example I kept referring to in my own mind when I was evaluating whether I agreed with her primary thesis - I do, she is completely correct and the rise of the trans rights movement exemplifies it perfectly.

I assumed from the book that she saw right through them but as a Canadian feminist academic she had to pay lip service to TRA bullshit for the sake of career survival. But she seems to be a true believer. It makes me think of Stockholm syndrome.

Also I think she is either pregnant or a new mother. The "disgust" people are picking up on may be a reaction to biological reality smacking her in the face.