Twitter - AGP Awerness Day

Thanks, Tyro. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Serano some time. As I understand it, Serano was one of the main people who separated out ideas of gender identity and expression. So now someone can be male bodied and express themselves for the most part as a man but still demand to be recognised as a woman.

@Tyrotoxicity thank you for that very perceptive and sensitive post. You're absolutely right, especially about the disassociation during masturbation.

Thanks tyro and janie. Very informative.

Bearing in mind I've I've only got in-depth insider knowledge of one agp, I think it's more a case of men not really understanding that the way women's sexuality is presented and discussed is an attempt to condition us. It's not real, it's not natural, it's about training us that being submissive and scantily clad and abusable makes us sexy and powerful and desirable.

They don't understand what real female arousal and desire are about. They believe what's presented to them. And they believe what's presented to them about male sexuality too.

There's being aroused by clothing and there's being aroused by wearing it yourself. It's this idea that, by putting on the performance, a woman gains sexual (and social) power, which is utter bollocks yet believed by so many of both sexes. Any arousal a woman might feel then is about feeling desirable and wanted; the clothes are just a proxy presented for this purpose by the culture.

For my ex, the clothes make him feel like the one who gets abused and humiliated and enjoys it. Pornified patriarchal society taught him that, and he never questioned it - no one around him questioned it - until I did.

I'm half asleep at the moment and at risk of not phrasing myself clearly, so I'll resist the urge to pick Serano apart.

A woman with an autoandrophilic fantasy might use culturally determined signifiers of masculinity as part of her fantasy, but what she's getting off on is being the powerful one, the one who's in control, the one who gets to do rather than be done to, the one who gets to focus on their own pleasure instead of it being all about the other's. The one who isn't Socially Constructed Woman.

I don't know what other women imagine when they're masturbating, but I suspect I'm far from alone in my tendency to imagine myself as possessing a female body that doesn't have the perceived flaws my actual body has. To someone who's not been raised female under patriarchy this may look like agp, but it's not. It's not about being aroused by imagining myself as a socially-approved sexy woman. It's about being so repulsed by my own body as a result of my experiences as a female under patriarchy that I simply couldn't muster successful arousal without taking myself out of the picture. That's not a fetish. It's trauma.

The thing we don't tend to admit around here, because it's understandably hard to try to empathise with adults indulging in obnoxious and abusive behaviour, is that there's often gendered trauma underlying agp too.

Has anyone read Julia Serano's Whipping Girl? Serano seems very conflicted about this. On the one hand, Serano doesn't agree that AGP exists. On the other, Serano admits that identifying as a woman brought up strong sexual feelings, and Serano enjoys masochism and sissification. Serano sees this purely as a reflection of women's lower social status. It read to me as though there's a strong erotic charge for Serano in identifying as a woman, but Serano doesn't like to confront why that might be.

As for this 'cis women also have AGP symptoms'... would anyone say the same about men? Do men get turned on just by imagining their own male bodies? By looking at themselves in the mirror? By putting on Y fronts and carrying out stereotypically manly tasks like fixing a car engine? No. So why should it be any different for women?

*Which means they have no real doubts about whether feeling sexy in frilly pants is a thing women do,

Is it your experience that they genuinely think women also feel aroused by their own clothing?*

My AGP ex definitely thought so

Thanks Tyrotoxicity, very interesting.

I think it's also worth bearing in mind that, in their heart of hearts, a hell of a lot of men don't really question the sexist social construction of womanhood that's presented to them.

I think this is very true. Or they manage to separate women into those who supply their fetish, and those who don't. Like two different species altogether.

Which means they have no real doubts about whether feeling sexy in frilly pants is a thing women do,

Is it your experience that they genuinely think women also feel aroused by their own clothing?

You would think so, Datun. And once upon a time that was probably true. These days there's the reddit factor to consider. And it's remarkably easy to squash secret doubts when you're in a community of like-minded people telling you you're normal. I suspect one major factor in ex not buying into the wrong-body narrative is that the only online community he has any interest in is guitarists on facebook. No reddit in sight!

It's not always just about sex either. It becomes escapism, dissociation, a form of maladaptive daydreaming. And if you get to the point of trying to project your maladaptive daydream into society (because large swathes of society that you're in contact with are lying to you that it's real) then whatever's in your heart of hearts is a) fucked and b) probably a long way divorced from how 'normal' people think.

I can't help but think of ex's drummer, who recently declared he's a woman. It's obvious to ex that the kid is mentally ill and developing the fetish and latching onto the wrong-body framework. He would also benefit from increased awareness of agp; it would give him a mechanism to separate his mh issues from his sexual escapism and understand both better.

I think it's also worth bearing in mind that, in their heart of hearts, a hell of a lot of men don't really question the sexist social construction of womanhood that's presented to them. Experience may teach them that some women are Not Like the Other Girls, but that's as far as they get. And they accept the sex-pozzy libfem shite because it makes sense to them.

Which means they have no real doubts about whether feeling sexy in frilly pants is a thing women do, and they never consciously deconstruct that to figure it out from a woman's perspective.

I can fully understand those upthread who have no empathy; it is a revoltingly misogynistic fetish. But those who have it need understanding that it is just a fetish, not an indication that they're actually women

I don't know if you can answer this question, Tyro.

Doesn't the fact that they are aroused and masturbate to the idea of being a woman logically tell them that it's something to do with sex, and not something to do with being 'born in the wrong body'?

I can understand wanting to keep up the pretence, as it's a constant source of arousal. But in their heart of hearts, surely they know?

Thanks for your post, Tyrotoxicity. Very enlightening to read your first hand experience of this due to your ex.

Annoyed I'm late to this post, cos I saw something about it a few weeks back and wanted to talk about it.

I shared a post about it on fb, which agp ex saw. He mentioned later that, actually, it would have been quite useful for him, when he was younger, to have general raised awareness of agp. It would have saved him a couple of decades of quietly fretting over whether he was actually gay or transsexual.

I can fully understand those upthread who have no empathy; it is a revoltingly misogynistic fetish. But those who have it need understanding that it is just a fetish, not an indication that they're actually women. At the moment, they talk about the crotch tingles online and immediately get confirmation that this is proof of womanliness. It's a fast track to becoming brave and stunning.

My ex accepts it's a fetish rooted in misogyny and traumatic childhood events, and is making a concerted effort to rein it in and deal with his life differently. He didn't get to this point by being called a woman-hater; he got here because I have sufficient empathy for him that he trusts and listens to me.

I'll add to the chorus of "yes, we need to kink-shame" though. Because without the shame element holding him back it would probably have been too late by the time I met him and introduced him to proper feminism.

of course we should kink shame. Men need to be aware that there are some things you just do not ask other people to do.

"Where do we draw the line?"

We draw the line when men are using women as unwilling props in their pursuit of erections. And we certainly draw the line at autogynephilia. I don't think this is that hard unless you're finding excuses for them.

Women matter more than men's perversions.

Shaming is an excellent social pressure when the activity is harmful to individuals and to society.

Whilst I don't disagree, my personal strategy would be to shine as much sunlight on AGP as possible. Talk about it, write about it, investigate it, have articles about it. Bring it out to the open. So it can be identified and addressed.

Most people have no idea it even exists in terms of moves to legitimise it. They don't realise it is born from misogyny and relies on audience participation.

And my motivation is driven purely by a desire to protect women and girls.

How can men who sexually fetishise women and use us as unwilling props in their perversions ‘respect women’? We are literally objects to them to be used to give them erections. Of course some of them can talk a good game, apparently having insight, but they’ll be getting off on that too.

I think, at some point or other in their lives, most heterosexual men use women as unwilling props to get erections. Where do we draw the line? I wouldn't try to argue that many guys with AGP are misogynistic narcissists, but I think some of them are making genuine attempts to find ways to deal with it, (for example, James Shupe) and I'd like to be supportive of them. If only because it's a social problem that affects women. Or if only because they might be able to help other men with AGP make better choices. The only way I can think of to get out of this mess, if there is a way out, is to find points mutual respect and honesty wherever we can. Maybe I'm just naive, but I want to believe that integrity can be a cure for many ills.

Karabair the "intro" to that story is telling. Summary: "It's all mummy's fault! She's horrible and I hate her!"

"It was Joe's final year at school when his father passed away and he had no other choice to move in with his mother in order to attain his dream scholarship. However, having chosen to live with his father after the divorce, Joe found that his mother held a grudge and was determined to make his life a living hell for the remainder of the school year. Joe had no other choice but to accept the teasing, taunting and humiliation that he would receive from his peers as he was slowly feminised against his will."

This might help for a reality check. Here's a book which is number 3 in the Google search for forced feminisation:

www.wattpad.com/story/122057752-the-gradual-change-forced-feminization-at-school

I was going to post a synopsis and chapter headings, but it's disgusting so I won't.

those who do wish for an out find themselves pressured to carry on

Really? Who is pressuring men to fantasise about being a woman?

Other AGPs will be encouraging them, but not society in general.

Another thing to criticise trans for - how far it has lowered the bar for women.

How can men who sexually fetishise women and use us as unwilling props in their perversions ‘respect women’? We are literally objects to them to be used to give them erections. Of course some of them can talk a good game, apparently having insight, but they’ll be getting off on that too.

If you want to know what’s really going on in their heads google forced feminisation and sissification. That’s where they’re at when they’re not putting on a public face.

This is why Grayson Perry gets away with dressing like a little girl in public because it sexually excites him. And nobody seems to mind.

Today was Intersex awareness day but no one appears to have been aware of it.

I'm not sure what to make of that account, but I think the more AGP awareness the better. I also don't see why a man with AGP who respects women is any less deserving of respect than any other heterosexual man. The problems begin when they don't respect spatial/linguistic etc. boundaries, which is what trans ideology is all about. There are a few men with AGP who are frank about it on social media, and I have a lot of respect for them. I especially think young men who are so-called "gender confused" and being pressured to trans, should have a chance to hear what they have to say.

Then again Caitlyn Jenner's Vanity Fair cover was a particular type of fantasy which nobody seemed to be aware of.

A search on "satin corset" and "feminisation" will give some idea.

A support group for perverts only encourages them. Sex offenders in prison who have been put in groups have ended up validating each other and giving each other ideas rather than acknowledging their behaviour.

There seems to be a huge misunderstanding here about how men's perversions operate.

It would definitely be good to have more awareness of and around AGP. I certainly had no idea about it until I got much more into the trans debate. Not sure if an 'international day' is the way to go about it though. Something like a support group is better.

With any kind of issue, the first step is acknowledging that it exists and that it is a problem. Awareness would help men realise what it really is about, especially if they want help to stop it. It would help their partner and families also realise what it is about and take steps to either distance themselves from it or assert that the men do something about it. And it also helps wider society recognise it for what it is and not inadvertently encourage it or treat it as harmless.