A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport

MrGHardy, you’re not supposed to say that the wrestling one is a girl, or you’ll be called out as a big bad transphobe. Naughty. The one who is taking a drug that is normally banned in sport, is permitted to take it, because they want to be called a boy/man. Now if they didn’t want to be called a boy/man and were just a typical female wrestler who acknowledges that they are actually female, but decided to take the drug to enhance their strength, they would be called a cheater and banned. Is that clear enough?

Short version.
Female wants to be called a boy and takes testosterone - that’s fine.
Female acknowledges that they are female, but takes drug. - they are a cheat and would be banned.

The wrestling one is a girl, no? Who is allowed to take testosterone, i.e. a PED, due to feeling like a boy.

LemonGinger
Wonderful thread! This really does sum it all up.

snowbear and UnbowedUnbentUnbroken
I believe the only "confirmation" of the sex of the athletes in question has come from the Chinese government, such a reputable source. Though shocking in 2019, I think it's probably still OK to believe what we see and hear. (Have you seen the video?) In my opinion, that photo absolutely belongs here.

And as for Judas: oh, I do hope you're enjoying those 30 pieces of silver. You've clearly sold your soul...

By the way, education is what led me to question the whole genderism movement. I only hope I can continue to learn more!

An outgrowth of ‘Lean In’, ‘girls can do anything if they try hard enough’ school of feminism that assumes that the only reason for women’s oppression is their own willingness to step up and do what men do. Totally ignoring female biology and systemic oppression based on our biology. Equality not equity, a classic mistake that woke folx are more than able to see with regard to race but not with regard to sex for some reason.

I think you meant 'transmen' in the second sentence, but otherwise spot on.

Transwomen, even if they lower their testosterone levels to normal readings for females, can never be asked to give up the extra bone length and muscle mass they acquired as males post-puberty. Transwomen, even with artificially raised testosterone levels, can never go back and acquire them.

Sport is no longer a level playing field.

I am reminded of the Eastern bloc swimming coach back in the day who was asked why the improvement of the men's performance had not matched that of the women's. "We can turn women into men but we cannot turn men into fish."

How these people can accept the medals and stand on the podium without shame is baffling.

Wait, so men (or males🙄) can now identify as women and doctors?!

Rachel McKinnon also identifies as a ‘doctor’, having completed a PhD in Specious Twattery at some dimbo college in Canada.

Ha ha yes! Well if TW want to be women, identify as women ergo 'are' women, then by all accounts they should be delighted to be dimbos and share in some of the patronising sexism the rest of us have been exposed to since the year dot. What's sauce for the goose 'n' all that ...

Thanks Tanith - I use the app and just start typing 'petition' into the topic chooser. Some boards are hard to find if you use the categories in the browser!

Easy to find, if anyone wants it, the thesis upon which the statement 'I'm a Doctor ' rests.

uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/handle/10012/6619

I'd like to point out that the Petitions and Activism board is under Classified.

So it is, I just found it there. Thanks Tanith.

"Can I remind people on this thread that it's always a good idea to check the Petitions board when there are things happening which might prompt a petition?"

I'd like to point out that the Petitions and Activism board is under Classified.

Rachel McKinnon also identifies as a ‘doctor’, having completed a PhD in Specious Twattery at some dimbo college in Canada.

Yes. McKinnon’s thesis was called ‘Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About.’

Dr. M. is a philosopher by trade.

I will never not love Rod Liddle’s description of RMK’s quals:

Rachel McKinnon also identifies as a ‘doctor’, having completed a PhD in Specious Twattery at some dimbo college in Canada.

Your opinions, when you don't understand these terms, are uneducated and frankly they are not valid.

Let's engage with a word or two on the subject of education, PP. It nurtures debate. It encourages challenge. It enhances autonomy through independent engagement and it necessitates critical thinking.

Note that word: 'necessitates'. There is no higher education without criticality. These things, as absolute fundamentals, are what higher education does. Fundamentalist belief-systems without room for debate or questioning have no room in education. There's another word for this. 'Indoctrination'. Another thing Higher Education excels in is interdisciplinary research WHERE - and this disclaimer is crucial - the disciplines inform and enhance one another. Now let's consider the trans-athlete who is the subject of recent controversy, and her contributions to this arena. She bands around her 'Dr' title as a talisman she believes she can carry unchallenged through life. She uses it to lend credibility to her chosen assertions, whether they're informed by her academic research or related to the topic of her postdoctoral research or not. (The subject of her PhD thesis was, interestingly enough, the art of how to BS convincingly).

Dr. M. is a philosopher by trade. She appropriates sport science and biology, using her academic credentials to validate any assertions she makes that are way beyond the scope of her expertise. (Incidentally, this is a pity. She's a lively, engaging and entertaining speaker. But what she says has little substance). As a humanities scholar, if I attend a conference of the physical sciences and use my own credentials to spit on their craft, so to speak, I will a), rightly be seen as an imposter and have the entire substance of what I say disregarded, b), excoriated in the Q&A following the paper, and c) laughed off the panel. Why? Because I'm not a physical scientist. Neither is Dr. M.

Anyone else trying to pull that stunt will be instantly seen through and discredited. Which begs the question: why not her? And whatever her views on binary versus spectrum and the gender/sex distinction, what is not - and has never been possible - is to determine how far human subjectivity is socially constructed and how far it's rooted in essentialism. No one. None. They've been chewing the fat on this one for over three decades and we're still none the wiser.

You can argue til the cows come home on this point and you'll still be on a treadmill to nowhere. It doesn't negate the truths of the pictures previously posted on this thread. And it doesn't come at the expense of women whose bodies are under threat from those with a more powerful physique, and whose physical safety (and segregated places) are more an imperative that someone else's 'validation'.

Can I remind people on this thread that it's always a good idea to check the Petitions board when there are things happening which might prompt a petition?

I'm mostly smooth unless it's the morning after too much red wine. Was wondering if we have any other organelles on the board.

Dear Endoplasmic reticulum, is there an endomembrane system I should know about who posts here?

And are you rough or smooth?

I'm still waiting to be educated about the difference between sex and gender.

Don't think much of this teacher. Can I call OFSTED?

Sometimes the clue is in the user name, d'you think Golgi?

'Or a faith'

What I love about biology is that I don't have to believe in it. Biology goes on regardless of my feelings about it.

Because biology isn't a belief system of a faith but a science.

Most of you clearly don't know what transgender means, what the difference between sex and gender is, or even how hormone therapy affects someone's body. Your opinions, when you don't understand these terms, are uneducated and frankly they are not valid. Once you are educated enough in the subject, you can speed about it, otherwise you look like a complete idiot

Another article for you to comment on while "educating" us:

web.law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)

The same is true of Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Allyson Felix’s 400 meters lifetime best of 49.26. Just in the single year 2017, men and boys around the world outperformed her more than 15,000 times.

This differential isn’t the result of boys and men having a male identity, more resources, better training, or superior discipline. It’s because they have an androgenized body.

The results make clear that sex determines win share. Female athletes – here defined as athletes with ovaries instead of testes and testosterone (T) levels capable of being produced by the female non-androgenized body – are not competitive for the win against males—here defined as athletes with testes and T levels in the male range. The lowest end of the male range is three times higher than the highest end of the female range. Consistent with females’ far lower T levels, the female range is also very narrow, while the male range is broad.

These biological differences explain the male and female secondary sex characteristics which develop during puberty and have lifelong effects, including those most important for success in sport: categorically different strength, speed, and endurance. There is no other physical, cultural, or socioeconomic trait as important as testes for sports purposes.

"Maybe the transactivists would like to take a break from harassing MumsNet and take them on?"

Errol, I think we both know why that will not be happening any time soon

The Western Journal is a conservative US publication. It says 'We are committed to truth and accuracy in all of our journalism'.
They use male pronouns throughout that piece.

Maybe the transactivists would like to take a break from harassing MumsNet and take them on?

Most of you clearly don't know what transgender means, what the difference between sex and gender is, or even how hormone therapy affects someone's body. Your opinions, when you don't understand these terms, are uneducated and frankly they are not valid. Once you are educated enough in the subject, you can speed about it, otherwise you look like a complete idiot.

Since you're interested in "educating" us, care to comment on this article?

Wiik et al 2019
www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/782557v1

Especially the final figure, showing isometric torque and muscle volume levels - even after 12 months on T for transmen and 12 months of T suppression for transwomen, there is no overlap between the two groups. Transmen's strength improves relative to women who do not take testosterone; transwomen's strength drops off relative to men who do not take testosterone suppressants. But there is still no overlap between biological males and biological females.