A picture speaks a thousand words. Transwomen in women’s sport

By the way, Hannah Mouncey is 6'2" and weighs 15 stone 10 lb according to the Daily Mail (1.88m and 100kg):-

EXCLUSIVE: Rugby Australia is urged to ban transgender women after new research found they are 'stronger, heavier and faster' and increase the risk of injuries by at least 20 per cent

This is the thread that opened my eyes.

Zombie thread, but I want to thank you all. Tonight DH disagreed that the USA would allow male born athletes to compete in women's events. Its true, a picture does indeed speak a thousand words and my husband is now shaking his head and muttering "how stupid".

Not all transwomen see this www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3736554-Transwoman-MMA-fighter-says-unfair-to-compete-against-women

Allow me time to pick that apart and see what I think.

I do not agree with some of the treatment given to them in this conversations. What treatment? That we GC women refuse to call transwomen women? What specifically is the treatment you do not like?

I agree with you that humans can not change sex but Transwomen are not men, Ithen what are they? The only really sensible answer is that the are men with dismorphia who wish to be seen as women.

I believe that transactivism needs to change ... as I don’t think all of them are a good reference to the whole trans community something almost every GC woman here has posted over the years!

I think that transwomen should be differentiated for certain issues, but not all of them, many issues involve biological women as well as transwomen. I don't understand that. Transwomen should always be differentiated. They don't want to be seen/treated as men and they are not women. They are transwomen. Let's celebrate that fact. What issues that involve women also involve transwomen? Male violence? Take that to violent men.

The hurt you talk about, honestly, is not inflicted by transwomen but by men who use this label to take advantage of women. You transphobe you!

Have you not read and internally digested the official Stonewall definition of transwoman?

Don't go picking and choosing the good and bad trans... that there is such a divide, such a subset of men, is PRECISELY whey GC women want an open and honest debate in the first place! Don't hold it up as a beacon of honesty and truth now. Many women have had their livelihoods threatened for trying to have that conversation. It comes across as utterly disingenuus to post that here.

I don’t think real trans people are trying to re-write biological reality, again Stonewall would label you a transphobe for the the use of the word 'real' you are denyng someone's reality! And don't tell me I am wrong, many posters here have said similar things on all sorts of platforms and in real life and been demonised for it!

it’s more an issue of educating society on the real issue so that the nonsense that has been happening (from both sides of the argument, to be frank), goes away. What education is needed? Precisely what needs to be learned? If some of the nonsense you refer to is women's rights to be safe, to legally claim single sex provision for some services that WILL by their very nature exclude transwomen then we will remain at logger heads. If it includes teaching that sex can be a spectrum, that men can be women because of a feeling, we will remain at loggerheads.

To go back to your comment about transactivists doing harm, yes! There is a great slew of women here who, a year or more ago, would have marched shoulder to shoulder with transwomen to fight for equality of provision. Not for access to all women's facilities but for specific, targetted, much needed provision of all sorts of facilities and services for trans men and women across the UK.

But not today. Purely because of the violent acts and social media presence of trans activists. And I mean real physical acts of violence by real transwomen, even discounting those 'bad men pretending' you mentioned before.

"I strongly believe this needs to be said emphatically by more people in the trans community."

Exactly, couldn't agree more, because transactivists do not want any kind of debate where people are using sound, logical arguments.

"if they have XY chromosomes, they are female"

Sorry, should have been XX chromosomes.

@JudasIsMyHomeboy

I believe that transactivism needs to change, but this is because I don’t think that trans representation is very accurate in that field, I don’t think the ones that speak the most should be doing so, as I don’t think all of them are a good reference to the whole trans community.*

I strongly believe this needs to be said emphatically by more people in the trans community. The loud activists are only alienating non-trans people.

"I agree with you that humans can not change sex."
"Transwomen are not men"

Well, that seems to me to be a clear contradiction.
If a human has XY chromosomes, then they are male, if they have XY chromosomes, they are female. There is a very tiny percentage, where humans are born with an "intersex" condition.

Thank you for your answer!

I understand, I just wanted to leave the option there, just in case.

I agree with you that humans can not change sex.
I agree that sex is binary and that intersex is not trans and they shouldn’t be mixed in that narrative.
And I understand why the focus is on transwomen as opposed to transmen, but I do not agree with some of the treatment given to them in this conversations.

I believe that transactivism needs to change, but this is because I don’t think that trans representation is very accurate in that field, I don’t think the ones that speak the most should be doing so, as I don’t think all of them are a good reference to the whole trans community.

Transwomen are not men, and their issues should not be addressed to or by them, but I also don’t think they should be dumped upon biological women.

Also, I think that transwomen should be differentiated for certain issues, but not all of them, many issues involve biological women as well as transwomen.

The hurt you talk about, honestly, is not inflicted by transwomen but by men who use this label to take advantage of women. There is many evidence of that, but, unfortunately, that tarnishes the trans community (this is the same thing that happens when any person who is not trans, identifies as such).

Lastly, I don’t think real trans people are trying to re-write biological reality, it’s more an issue of educating society on the real issue so that the nonsense that has been happening (from both sides of the argument, to be frank), goes away.

That's not particularly likely. Judas

This is a notoiceboard. If you start a thread many will join in. Then you will feel hounded and that won't end well for anyone.

But... there are a few long standing threads here that set out the FWR stall and most GC posters agree with most of the contents, but not all, as we are peculiarly individual in our GC feminism.

But what it usually boils down to is:

• humans cannot change sex.
• sex is binary, don't try to play the intersex card, we will shoot you down (some of us are very well educated in physical sciences) and intersex community has aksed manytimes to be left out of this, they are no trans 'gotcha!'
• Transwomen are the focus of posts here because it is women they discommode
• Transmen are discussed sometimes but they don't discomoode women as much, so we woudllike to leave them to men to work out

Most of us here ARE interested, though we wish to whatever gods or other comforts we hold to that we didn't have to be.

Some here are trans widows, parents of trans kids, trans themselves. We don't have a single mind... no matter what certain Twitter accounts like to insist!

Personally - 2 years ago I was all for forebearance. Transwomen were no threat to me, it must be awful to live in a body you don't like etc etc. I have trans friends (both ways), have had for decades. But transactivism has changed all of that.

Now I am fully in the camp of transwomen are men and should take their issues to fellow men, stop expecting women to move over and sort out their problems. There are too many instances of things TRAs said would never happen that have happened.

Too many women hurt, physically and mentally.

Too many women silenced in their jobs. And for what? For asking for debate, an open discussion on the competing rights of women and trans women?

So, if you want to know what the average GC MNer thinks you have a lot of threads at your disposal. I suspectyou'll find it interseting, especially of you start woith a relatively open mind.

Begin by believing that nobody here denies the existance of trans individuals. Nor do they think trans individuals should cease to exist, be harmed, die in a grease fire etc. We just don't believe that transwomen are women. They are transwomen and should rejoice in that rather than trying to re-write biological reality!

Hello again and sorry for not responding.
To anyone that responded to my comments and/or asked me to comment on a specific article; would you be interested in having a debate 1 to 1? Just to share your point of view and your arguments, I'll share mine and maybe we'll reach an understanding. I would just love to actually have a good talk with someone interested.
And to the one who wished me well with the coins after selling my soul; I'm having a blast, hope you're doing well darling!

I meant to add that sex chromosome testing really is the only way to go, in my view. If you have XY, you compete in men's events; if you have XX, you compete in women's events. If you have an uncommon variation on these, that would need to be decided on its merits.

Another picture (with accompanying article) that speaks a thousand words:

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-weightlifting-newzealand-hubbard/weightlifter-hubbard-becomes-lightning-rod-for-criticism-of-transgender-policy-idUKKCN1UP0FG

The sporting world is curiously biased against women only sport to the point of penalising a woman with higher than average testosterone levels

Do you mean Semenya who gas-lighted everyone with the “I’m a woman with hyperandrogenism and I don’t want to change my body and just want to run free”?

Semenya is biologically male (XY) whose high testosterone levels are normal for males and come from internal testes.

Marking and Keeping thread to read properly later

This transwoman takes the place of a woman on the Kent County Cricket women's team. The Women's Cricket organisers in the UK have announced plans to expand and promote women's and girls cricket...not really displaying that here. Bullshit.

This is great:

babylonbee.com/news/motorcycle-that-identifies-as-bicycle-sets-world-cycling-record

www.thecollegefix.com/big-sky-conference-names-male-runner-female-athlete-of-the-week-leaves-out-hes-transgender/

USA - Big Sky Conference names male runner ‘female athlete of the week,’ leaves out he’s transgender

We're talking about this at home and my husband asked (and I couldn't answer so maybe someone here can help), why did/does the IOC not require transwomen to lower their testosterone level to the range of normal testosterone levels for women?

And his second question was how does the IOC justify not letting women raise their testosterone levels to the same levels allowed for transwomen? (Neither he nor I is suggesting that would be desirable or solve the problem).

stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf
Reference ranges:
Male: 10 – 30 nmol/L
Female: 0.7 – 2.8 nmol/L
(NHS)

It's baffling because there are so many and varied attempts to validate it by muddying waters of fact. Such as well is testosterone really such an advantage and are there really such difference between male and female development etc etc etc.

This is where people get confused, because it isn't about fact at all. It's quite simple. The heart of this is that someone is what they feel inside, regardless of the exterior and facts, and the 'right' thing to do is accept them wholeheartedly and welcome them as they would like to be. To unconditionally validate and support their chosen self.

Which sounds lovely, but as this board lists in many and varied forms, impacts on the rights of women in many, multiple and varied ways that aren't an acceptable side effect of male born people being able to never encounter a 'no' or a boundary to their chosen identity that 'invalidates' it. This is named as 'discrimination' because of the central premise that if you say you are then that identity is who you are in fact.

This is why when anyone says, 'but that's not fair because...' - it's transphobia. This is why when anyone says, 'but women need....' - it's transphobia. This is why when anyone says 'sex based rights...' - it's transphobia. Transphobia is not unconditionally supporting someone in their perceived self and pretending there are no differences, no side effects or impacts on others in order to protect that perceived self.

Fairness in women's sport, in fact women's sport and women athletes, wholly cease to matter in this, which is why there is this increasingly baffled and frustrated discourse of women talking about facts and women's rights and being called evil transphobes. It's a fundamental misunderstanding. Women are focused on what is best for women as a class. To trans ideology this is all about the focus on never allowing anything to challenge the person's self identified reality. Anything that does is transphobic. So male born people should be welcomed into women's races and celebrated for their wonderful women athletic achievements because that is what preserves and protects their chosen identity.

And there you see the entire problem with the movement. As Rhys-Mogg nailed it in one line: other people have rights too.

When I said we should just accept this I did not think we should. I meant to to sound oppressive.

Commenting on this debate for the first time really. I heard someone on the radio the other day extolling the virtues of being non-binary. What stood out for me was the fact that they said they did not feel like they fitted into the male social dynamic and that sometimes they identified more with being female. This person was biologically male.

For me it appeared more about people from the different sexes embracing the left and right of arc within their own sex to allow their own gender to feel included. It was like the feeling of exclusion drove them to feel that they must actually belong in a different group be it female or non-binary. If the individual feels female (but isn't biologically) we should just accept this.

As a woman, competing in a sport with someone biologically male who has had the benefit of going through puberty and all that that brings with it becomes fundamentally unfair.

My career field is made up predominantly of men and physical ability is a key requirement. Fitness standards are adjusted for male and female sexes. There have been quite a few transgender women in that field and they have nearly always always been wholly male (and make a point of saying so) but donning a skirt and some lippy and asking to become 'one of the girls'.

It feels like an elephant in the room. Where they literally take up space in a male fashion but expect the women to feel ok with them being in the few women's spaces available.
I say few women's spaces because more often than not there are for example male loos and disabled loos and men & women use the disabled loos but only men use the mens. In one location you have to transit though a shower room and changing space to get to the disabled loo. The men who use the changing space do not care if women come through. There is no segregation of changing space. Just to give an idea.

There have been one or 2 what in my opinion I would call genuine transgender women in my work and they behave completely differently to the 'loud and proud variant' and have gone to the enormous effort to become as close as possible as it could be to looking like a biological woman (and I don't mean lipstick and unicorn sparkle...one has short hair and wears trousers but she has concentrated carefully on gait etc) don't tell the world about it never push their agenda and if you did not know because you had not witnessed their transition you would never guess. There seems to be a split between types of transgender.

The sporting world is curiously biased against women only sport to the point of penalising a woman with higher than average testosterone levels but allowing access to a transgender woman who may not have much testosterone now but has benefitted massively from the hormone it the formative years. Baffling really.