"the most vulnerable people in our society"

allmywhat No, it's fine, and yes, whilst we have to worry about him getting someone else pregnant, we don't have to worry about him getting pregnant himself. He isn't as vulnerable as a woman in his position would be.

I have a (admittedly not 6'5") brother with learning difficulties. He is bigger and stronger than me, but, mentally extremely vulnerable - people have been stealing money from him, persuading him to sign up for mobile contracts/buy stuff on HP for them/take out loans for them/drive them around for hours etc. because he is trusting and easy to manipulate.

This is very upsetting, so maybe I'm an arse for pointing out that if he was your sister, you'd have to worry about people with even worse intentions taking advantage, and the sexual assault rates for women with intellectual disabilities are off the charts. I think it's a relevant consideration in terms of the discussion, but I don't want to downplay the awfulness your brother goes through. I'm sorry.

Nailing a dead rat to a building is really disturbing behaviour.

You'd be a lot safer as a six foot five mentally ill person than a five foot two mentally ill person.

Differently vulnerable.

I have a (admittedly not 6'5") brother with learning difficulties. He is bigger and stronger than me, but, mentally extremely vulnerable - people have been stealing money from him, persuading him to sign up for mobile contracts/buy stuff on HP for them/take out loans for them/drive them around for hours etc. because he is trusting and easy to manipulate.

Being big and strong doesn't make being vulnerable impossible, just makes you vulnerable to different things.

Having said all of this, being vulnerable also shouldn't be a free pass to do whatever you like.

Pota I get what you are saying but it in these cases the response to this sort of vulnerability is proper mental health support. Including to come to terms with their sex or to control their sexual fetish. Not expecting everyone to indulge them/live in their fantasy world.

Surely children are the most vulnerable group?

Well it depends on whether you just see vulnerability in terms of physical strength. In that case children, many women, the elderly and disabled people would be vulnerable to a potential attack from those physically stronger than them.

However, I don’t think that’s the meaning of vulnerability that is being used when we refer to vulnerable people. I would class people with serious MH issues, homeless people, drug and alcohol addicts, women in abusive relationships, women in prostitution as being vulnerable with their vulnerability not being limited to physical harm. It’s also about having chaotic lives, being the target for predatory people and being excluded from society. Most street homeless people are adult men but I would class them as vulnerable. Maybe they would be able to hold their own in an attack, but that’s of limited use if you have to sleep outdoors and could be set upon when asleep.

I know one trans person who has a catalogue of MH issues, which means said person can’t hold down a job and has been homeless. They would meet the test for vulnerable adult without a doubt. If attacked by a woman, they could no doubt hold their own. An attack by three grown men at once, not so much.

If physical strength is your sole measure for whether a person is vulnerable then your assessment is correct. But according to your model, a 6 ft tall 13 year old boy also wouldn’t be potentially vulnerable, which is untrue because children don’t have sufficient emotional maturity to cope with certain situations.

And I am not saying that being trans itself makes a person vulnerable but having a load of MH conditions including suicidal ideation and self-harm does. Someone like Jane Fae or Shon Faye though- not so much.

I don't think transwomen are vulnerable or oppressed. TRAs on Twitter often say that, in real life, people treat them as their desired gender role without any problems. So where is the oppression?

And hell, don't get me started on how autistic women are treated by medical professionals. There's the underdiagnosis, for starters.

A black autistic woman has marvellously been calling out the neurodiversity movement on its racism/misogyny over the past few months. Not GC, but for anyone who is interested in following the experiences of autistic women of colour, @ beingkaylasmith is well worth a follow.

^ That is not even an exhaustive list, btw. Nowhere near.

When two women a week (*the rounded stat) are killed by a current or former partner, then women are vulnerable.

When a close woman friend, who practices martial arts, is tough as shit, and takes no shit from anyone is trapped in an abusive relationship because she fears the reaction when she does end things, then women are vulnerable.

When women are harassed over social media at a rate that we had to petition Twitter to even add a reporting method, after Caroline Criado-Perez reached the volume of death and rape threats that she did in a twenty-four hour period, then women are vulnerable.

When you consider the manner in how you plan a date differs to how the men you're dating are planning a date, that speaks volumes about women's vulnerability. I make a point of ensuring my friends know whatever I know about a date before I go, and one of my closest friends contacted me about one man I'd dated to inform me that he was abusive towards his mother. Yes, his mother. His choice of target for abuse was not a coincidence.

When men message you with graphic sexual messages over dating apps, then women are vulnerable.

When women are more likely to be in temporary or part-time positions because of their sex, then women are vulnerable.

When women are facing losing their jobs because women take the majority of caring responsibilities, meaning they are more likely to miss shifts due to familial commitments, then women are vulnerable.

Nalt Textiles in Vietnam reduced its staff turnover by 10% by improving health programmes and childcare facilities. Who do you think this mostly benefited?

When the leading cause of death amongst women and girls aged 15-19 is complications in pregnancy and childbirth, then girls are vulnerable.

When child brides, in all countries, are less likely to complete education, then women and girls are vulnerable.

When women experience high levels of harassment when working in male dominated fields, then women are vulnerable.

When the rates of girls married as child brides increases during conflict, then women and girls are vulnerable.

When the prosecution rate for rape is falling, then women are vulnerable. When the conviction rate for rape is falling, women are vulnerable

When child brides are placed at an increased risk of trafficking, then women and girls are vulnerable.

When women are more likely to live in poverty, overall, then women are vulnerable. And following on from something I've touched on several times in this thread, child brides are more likely to live in and remain in poverty. Women are vulnerable.

When girls who were married before the age of 15 are 50% more likely to be the victims of domestic violence, then women and girls are vulnerable

When organisations have actively recognised that ending child marriage could reduce the risk of violence against women and girls by 10% in some countries, then women and girls are vulnerable.

When women and girls are overwhelmingly the victims of honour based abuse, then women and girls are vulnerable.

And when men are nailing dead rats to rape crisis centres, it doesn't take a genius to work out who's vulnerable.

The sex stereotype rules are familiar and well enforced by men and women alike. So when you see a male (with all that innate power and privilege) ‘become’ a woman instead with all that associated powerlessness then it’s seen as awfully sad. A tragic and pitiable loss.

The absolute worst thing imaginable, in a world of sex stereotypes, is being born a member of the dominant sex class only to be ‘outed’ as really the weak and reviled second sex. What could be more tragic, devastating and at the same time brave and worthy of our support?

Also, vulnerability is not just about lack of physical strength. You can be 6 ft 5 and vulnerable if you have severe mental health issues. I think the de-medicalisation of gender dysphoria was a big mistake. There will be vulnerable people who don’t get support as a result.

The point is that instead of helping those with vulnerabilities, the TRAs use them for point-scoring and to validate their arguments.

A middle aged man who transitions is unlikely to be particularly vulnerable but obviously a confused 7 year old who is told that he is really a girl and set up to take blockers is. There are also trans identifying individuals who live very chaotic lives due to MH issues and we have all seen how women who have suffered abuse as children may be pushed down the trans path. However, the loudest voices are not those of the vulnerable- quite the opposite. The other false bit of the narrative is that the vulnerability arises solely due to discrimination when that is very far from the truth. It is because a person is already vulnerable in some way that trans often seems to be an attractive option.

Didn't finish my thought - which is that people - in this issue but also others - make the claim because it gives them power in the discourse.

I think in a way the answer is indirect. It is because somewhere along the line many people have decided that being most vulnerable wins you some sort of argument.

It's even implicit in responses you see, where people will say, no - these people are not the most vulnerable, it is really women/children/the disabled etc.

All of whom are people that can be vulnerable in one way or another. But it doesn't mean that they get to tell us what is true, or set the political agenda, or silence other voices, or have some sort of moral superiority.

Yeah but the ones who are being told that they are trapped in the wrong body are far far more vulnerable compared to other children. They are often the ones with other vulnerabilities too, including autism, and the risk to them is massive and the consequences largely unknown.

Agree re trans children, who are indeed very vulnerable.
In this day and age I’d say all children are vulnerable: the state sanctified exposure to trans ideology is unhealthy for all children, eradicating boundaries and making a mockery of safe guarding.

Indeed Karabair, my list is not by any means exhaustive, there is an endless list of people who are genuinely vulnerable. Trans privilege activists give not one shiny shit about any of them, including the gender confused youngsters they are grooming.

Vulnerable people:

People with physical disabilities
People with learning disabilities
People with serious end mental health problems (schizophrenia, bi polar disease etc)
People living in abject poverty
People who are homosexual in countries where homosexuality is illegal
Women in countries where women are legally treated as lesser than men
Refugees
People with terminal illnesses
People with dementia

I can think of lots of vulnerable people, I work with them day in, day out. Middle and upper class westerners who wish they weren't the sex they are and have thousands of pounds to waste on cosmetic surgery like McKinnon, Whittle or JF don't even feature. The average trans privilege activist is one of the most pampered people who has ever walked the earth, the precise opposite of 'vulnerable'.