Yoga with Adriene - Redo of PMS Video

One last thing the first piece of communication I saw was the direct message not the email. I can’t go back to check but if it had been the email then perhaps that annoyance would have been more in line with how I feel when it’s trans women invading my space.

I wouldn’t mourn the loss of ladies I would woman of course. I don’t think they’re the same thing.

Well no I wouldn’t watch either because they both don’t hit the mark of her other videos.

Strong centralised language that is not male. I actually care more more preserving this than I realised.

Right, I'll spell it out again, since you're determined to misunderstand my position TequilaPilates. I do not object to or resent Adriene producing a video about PMS and cramps where she does not use female-coded forms of address or explicitly refers to female biology.

I object to the reason she gives for doing so and her original announcement of re-doing the original video because it was apparently exclusive. It was not. It was for women. Those complaining are also women. Women who only feel excluded because they would rather not be reminded of being women.

I did not make any demands to take the second video down - I am not denying any woman in conflict with her biology access to it. That the second video is not half as good as the first is my personal judgement, (many others may disagree), but that is by the bye. It does not change the nature of or motivation for my objection to her announcement.

I want third spaces or products and services dedicated to trans people without their existence being justfied by claiming or even just implying that female biology and implicit or explicit references to female biology are transphobic or exclusive of all other women. Making female biology unspeakable when addressing the female sex class and denying female biology where this is the root cause of an issue is harmful to women.

Which is why, much as you do not understand me, I do not understand you, MarshaBradyo. Objecting to female-coded language like girls or ladies, especially in the context of a video watched by many women who happily think of themselves as such, a video furthermore that also uses other, less contentious forms of address, is much further down my list of priorities than objecting to the category word woman being declared exclusionary to any adult human females. And also much further down than objecting to explicit references to female biology and connected medical issues being erased from any material about these very topics.

You are apparently fine with female erasure in the context of female biology, but object to me not protesting words implying femininity (especially in this context, where it is acknowledged that femininity is not favoured by all women).

I don't actually criticise the use of ladies at all, because I learned it as merely a posh form of address and don't have the same reaction to it others may have. And girls I object to when this is the only word used to address adult women in an infantilising context. But that is quite likely due to my background in linguistics - context and nuance always matters in how I evaluate language use.

As I've said before, I do not prescribe or proscribe to other women what they can get exercised about, I was explaining only my own preferences and priorities. So, if you prefer the second video because it uses no female-specific words at all, then I am happy for you that there is now a video you feel comfortable with when you have PMS and cramps.

Indeed Boireannachlaidir . A good point. It's a reflection of the pressure that is put on individuals and institutions to comply with their way of thinking . Because if you fail to comply - as is demonstrated so clearly just upthread - you'll be accused of being transphobic in thought and deed. And if you don't immediately fold and agree that you are wrong, then the pressure will go on and on and on.... just like this thread

And you can, she isn't stopping you. There's also the first video made for cramps and pms that is aimed at women, so what she has done is made an additional video. You haven't lost anything, she's made an additional one for people that would rather have that. A 3rd space.

@TequilaPilates I don't mean this to sound rude but I think you're spectacularly missing the point where people, women, are concerned about the insidious way that things for women, the very language we use is being stripped away to make way for what...?

I'm not that eloquent as I can't put my point across in a way to make people understand clearly. This isn't about a third space really or the fact we've not lost anything by the original video being there. It's that there's no need to do an additional one or stop or change or "redo" it from using words such as women when discussing PMT and cramps.

It still is for women. The people accessing it are women not men.

Yes, transmen are female, but the denial of biology is the source of the conflict in all cases.

Because of past experiences, some people respond in a knee-jerk way, while others may see this as an appropriation of something originally designed for women.

we’re concerned about the erosion of the language surrounding women and female biology.

Which hasn't happened here because a video, containing all of the female language and biology, still exists.

charlestonchaplin

But this video has got nothing to do with transwomen nor single sex spaces.

This video is in fact the embodiment of what many people want in order to avoid the erosion of single sex spaces - a 3rd space.

So, people might as well.look at this and think no point creating a 3rd space cos they'll complain about that too so we'll just make everywhere unisex. It's an own goal, can't you see that?

You argue against making places unisex and say have single sex plus a 3rd space and then when someone follows that principle you shout foul and demand that both spaces should be single sex.

Other people have a right to be represented and to have their needs met. They haven't taken yours away, they've asked for their needs to be met in addition to what is there for you.

Yoga is not my thing and because of the spiritual aspects it will never be my thing. If it was, I wouldn’t have a problem with two videos for different audiences, but I think I may have some understanding of what may be going on here.

When I think of the actions of many transwomen TRA activists (and those who hide behind their skirts, happily enjoying the spoils), I feel as if they have come to my home with the police and battered down the door. Then proceeded to my kitchen, helped themselves to my favourite snacks, then come to me sitting in my favourite position on the sofa and pushed me off to take my place. And then look at my bewildered face and go aggressively, ‘What?’. If someone did that to you repeatedly, aggressively appropriating what’s yours as theirs, even the most mild-mannered person would start to get angry.

Women are angry! And many have started to get hard-hearted and more radical in their positions. Many have openly said that they were previously happy to share single-sex spaces, including toilets and changing rooms, with those with a GRC but they are now moving to a position of not wanting to share with any males at all. That’s partly due to the increased knowledge many women now have (widespread male genitalia, male offending pattern) but also due to feeling many transwomen give us no consideration whatsoever.

This aggressive push to stop biological women having ANYTHING of our own will have a backlash. I think it’s starting already and I think it’s the kind of thing some transwomen (like Debbie Hayton) foresaw and have been trying to head off with public statements against self-ID.

There are different views and it’s important people feel they can express them without others resorting to sarcasm otherwise it’s not a constructive place.

Its been said many times on FWR that different posters have different views on things and different red lines

Some posters are all the way to one side and others float around the middle

It's threads like these that make me really question what's behind all of the other threads on FWR.

As I said, on other threads the board regulars insist that they have nothing against transgender people it's just that they are fighting for sex segregated spaces and that they would join in and support 3rd spaces.

And then you see threads like this and you think, well this is a 3rd space. Women have had nothing taken away, it completely is in addition to what women already had and yet people are arguing against it. Why?

And now I'm.starting to think that all of the other threads on this board are coming from the same place and being motivated by the same ideology.

It isn't about preserving safe spaces or single sex spaces. It's about something else.

Why aren't you saying the same to the people agreeing with you paw? They've been on here a lot too.

I’m guessing no minds have been changed on this thread

I do find it a bit knee jerk standard mn in places

Ha I doubt it Paw. We’ll be leaving you each agreeing at some point.

We have been as persistent as any one else in what we say. Probably more frequently as there’s fewer of us.

Thanks Tequila glad you’re on this thread with Cohle and others as feel in minority!

MarshaBradyo

Well put. That sums up her videos so well and I agree with everything you've said.

Charley it’s not just about what Adriene likes though it’s what I want too. If I seek out spaces where people do not use ladies and girls I am not going along with something that is harmful to females.

You say it can happen but it’s carefully applied. That sounds too rare and constructed for it to happen as much as I would like it to. Feels suffocating, I’m glad I don’t have to hear it all the time lest we slip into male language.

Her other videos strike a really nice balance and sound non-male but also not female using stereotypical words. Very calming and supportive. And more whole.

Charley

Sorry, I disagree.

I think this thread shows just why MN is accused of being transphobic.

So many times on this board posters justify campaigning against transwomen being allowed to use women's toilets (or changing rooms, hospital wards etc) by saying that they have nothing against transwomen, that they want everyone to be included for who they are, they want them to be happy and so on but that it's important that women's sex segregated spaces are kept single sex. That if transgender people can't use spaces appropriate for their sex then it's on them to campaign for gender neutral 3rd spaces. That is the message on any thread on FWR discussing women's spaces.

So here we have someone who has done exactly that. They've created the 3rd space. They haven't taken away from women because that video remains. They've created a new video for a different group of people. You yourself say that the 2nd video isn't as good as the 1st, so the video for women is better. But that apparently isn't good enough. Some of you are insisting that women must have 2 videos and the transmen or gender neutral viewers can have none.

I cannot see how you think that is right?

Maybe what she should have done is rather than make a 2nd more inclusive video, simply remove the 1st one completely. Then transmen wouldn't have felt excluded because there would be nothing to have been excluded from. But everyone would have lost out then wouldn't they? She wouldn't have come in for all this though.

Is that what you want to happen? Rather than bring in a 3rd space, which apparently isn't acceptable to you?

No chance of me feeling like a goddess, although I'd love to reach that state of being one can achieve in yoga if one applies oneself a lot more than me.

But thank you for reading and thank you for letting me know you found my comments good.

TequilaPilates

Bodies are not gender neutral.

We are discussing a video addressing issues caused by female biology. Gender neutral language is neither helpful nor acceptable in this context.

Gender neutral also defaults to male in almost all contexts within patriarchal systems. This is not what we are striving for, it's harmful to females and that's why I reject it unless it is carefully and correctly applied.

As for girls, ladies and pink socks. I am most often surrounded by women who like to be feminine and who are comfortable being so. I am not. Adriene however strikes me as someone who is and for whom using girls, ladies and pink socks to denote female is acceptable. I have no issue with that, especially since she acknowledges that other women feel differently. If she ever said we had to be feminine or like pink, I would disagree.