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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any academics? Is this normal now?

87 replies

Herja · 19/10/2019 06:37

I've just started a humanities arts degree. My first submission is in a couple of weeks, yesterday my seminar was based on essay advice.

My course tutor stated that we must not use gendered pronouns, that we should use 'they' rather than 'he/she' in our writing. I queried this and was told "well you never know, you mustn't make assumptions...".

So, is this normal now? If it's not I will either argue this, or just plain ignore it, but it seemes prudent to check if this is just standard practice now Sad.

University of Bristol if you were interested, known for being woke eejits, hence the checking; I'm confident enough in my work ability to take the marks hit by pissing of the tutor...

OP posts:
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 19/10/2019 21:40

Hmmm, I think that most authors probably used sex-based pronouns as was usual when they were writing (and still is except for a few areas of uber-wokeness). I think you should ask your lecturer / lecturers to provide evidence that the authors of your set texts were not happy with sex based pronouns if they expect you to jump through unnatural hoops to write essays.

I also second the suggestion that if they're going to require the use of non-sex based pronouns, they need to do an impact assessment of the impact on students who will find this more difficult (e.g. English not first language).

Springfern · 19/10/2019 21:30

I don't think you have to worry about characters OP. Just checked my copy of Pride and Prejudice and Lizzy is referred to as she/her throughout....surely Austen wouldn't have mis-gendered her? ....But then maybe Austen was a TERF Shock

Pota2 · 19/10/2019 15:09

And also studies have shown that when you don’t mention or remove gender, everyone assumes the person is male. Which is why it’s essential to note female writers. So what Vicky is suggesting is awfully regressive.

MrGsFancyNewVagina · 19/10/2019 15:06

It's also a really good mind exercise to remove gender and see how that affects the way you think. Give it a try.

The OP isn’t concerned with some made up ‘gender’ bollox, just about being able to use the correct pronouns in order to differentiate the ‘sexes’. I love the fact that you’re basically trying to get the OP to brainwash themselves. Grin No, *Vicky’, this OP is too smart to try to gain woke cookies.

Pota2 · 19/10/2019 15:03

Wasn’t this person was it OP? Trying to think of the woke people I know in Bristol English...

twitter.com/joanpassey/status/1148890773557010433?s=21

Pota2 · 19/10/2019 14:54

FWRLurker no, sadly they didn’t just mean hypothetically (in which case singular they is fine) but in relation to individuals where the sex is clearly known.

I would write the essay referring to pronouns of the sex of the person you are discussing where necessary. If you get even the sniff of anyone marking you down for it, unleash hell by emailing the HoD and threatening to take it higher. They get shit scared of that. Also, unless this is written in official course documentation then it’s very likely that this tutor just made it up.

FWRLurker · 19/10/2019 14:47

I will give them the benefit of the doubt here, that they are referring to the use of “he or she” vs “they” when discussing a hypothetical person.

For example,

“When a person eats spaghetti, he or she must twirl it first”

Versus

“When a person eats spaghetti, they must twirl it first”

In which case both are correct - the question is about which is preferred. Personally I prefer the second because it is shorter and to me less clunky. I would hope that you would not lose points for choosing the first however.

AnyOldPrion · 19/10/2019 14:24

If you write to the head of department and find it is required.... well I’m not sure what I’d do. Tempting possibilities include using she/her throughout, or using “they” but set it in language that would be grammatically correct for he or she. Add in the realisation that we can no longer mention men or women (because Mr Darcy very likely felt like a woman inside). It’ll be a lovely essay...

Jane Austin was an author who had a vagina. They was very much engaged in noting power differentials between penis people and vulva people.

Honestly, if faced with having to do that, I would genuinely be looking to transfer to a different subject or university.

Madcats · 19/10/2019 12:13

When I was at Bristol Uni in the 80's one of our elderly law lecturers didn't think women should be at Uni so refused to acknowledge us/answer questions. How times have changed.

I am not up to speed with these 'gender' pronouns. Surely they aren't precise enough?

Almost looking forward to the next call from the Alumni telesales students asking for money.

Karabair · 19/10/2019 10:32

So unless every person in history specifically announced their pronouns we're not allowed to name their sex? Is this a man or a woman instructing you to do this? Whichever, ignore them or ask them why they think it's important to erase women and go back to the default male (which "gender neutral" always is in our culture).

Women's writing and the study of it is hugely important. Kate Millet wrote Sexual Politics on the back of her PhD in English. Andrea Dworkin was also an English Lit undergraduate. Erasing the female from female work can only be the work of male supremacists.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/10/2019 10:07

We can also deduce from their writings about other people (real and their fictions) whether or not they supported the practice of using pronouns congruent with sex.

Hm, can anyone think of an author who didn't use pronouns matching sex? This tutor really is being arrogant if they're discounting they want you to discount the evidence of an authors own words. A sort of cultural imperialism - thinking that their thinking should take precedence.

Pota2 · 19/10/2019 09:54

It’s well know what these authors’ pronouns were because if they had any objections to it they would have fucking said so at the time wouldn’t they? If Jane Austen and Sylvia Plath didn’t raise any objections to being viewed as women during their lifetimes, then we can assume no objections. The absolute sheer idiocy of all this. And the harm it causes in reinforcing stereotypes. It’s such a privileged white middle class neoliberal movement. Staggering that they think they are doing good through this.

Herja · 19/10/2019 09:48

ShesDressedInBlackAgain that's it exactly.

OP posts:
smemorata · 19/10/2019 09:45

Even if everyone is clear on the sex of the writer, still 'they' because you can never know...
Well if you can never know, you also can't know if he or she would find being referred to as "they" as ridiculous woke bollocks so it doesn't really work as a reason.

Or find the authors' own writing about themselves (I imagine Jane Austen and Simone de Beauvoir have written about themselves?) and use that.
Surely the would use "I" to refer to themselves. I can't really see that catching on! Grin

worstofbothworlds · 19/10/2019 09:38

I'm an academic though in STEM. I do get the odd student misgendering authors (and occasionally me) and 99% of the time it's female to male. I'd be inclined to change ALL author pronouns to "she" and say you are doing it to redress the balance from the time when female authors had to represent themselves as male. Or find the authors' own writing about themselves (I imagine Jane Austen and Simone de Beauvoir have written about themselves?) and use that.

I have no problem with the indeterminate "they" as Shakespeare used it.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/10/2019 09:34

Using neutrals is entirely appropriate for a person of unknown sex. It's better than s/he and way better than defaulting to he. If it's good enough for Austen...

Otherwise - why is this tutor making the massive and unjustified assumption, driven by mores operating in a very culturally specific time and place (Western elites in the 2nd decade of the 21st century, pretty much) that a person would prefer to be referred to by a neutral pronoun rather than the one which is in accordance with their sex? If anyone you're likely to be writing about has a known different preference then obviously use it.

Using 'they' for individuals of known sex is making assumptions.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 19/10/2019 09:34

include many more female voices in teaching. This latter effort has meant increased scrutiny on written assumptions of the male as norm. It's clunky to write s/he all the way through a piece of work so some lecturers are advising students as you've been advised, but that's just as ugly to my eyes.

This isn't what OP is talking about. She's talking about writing an essay about Emily Bronte and calling her 'they' all the way through.

Pota2 · 19/10/2019 09:33

Give it a rest Vicky. As with everything else, it’s only ever the word woman that’s offensive, not man.

GCAcademic · 19/10/2019 09:32

Yes, OP, be a good, compliant little handmaiden like vickyjgo and do what the man tells you.

It sounds like these are recommendations of style as opposed to a prescription or threat of marking people down if they're not 'woke' enough.

Have you read all of the OP's posts, Hypathia? Because that's not what the tutor is asking. He wants Sylvia Plath, for example, to be referred to as "they".

BettyFilous · 19/10/2019 09:29

I wonder if you should write to your head of department asking whether the guidance is departmental policy and whether you will be marked less favourably if you don’t follow it. You can note the writer’s sex may be relevant if you are grounding your analysis in a historical context and you are concerned that the guidance you’ve been given will impede your ability to express yourself clearly and provide a clear analysis of the relevant context. It may be that you have a rogue academic who has gone off piste or overstepped. If you get confirmation it is policy, I’d be asking whether it’s been impact assessed (eg for students on the autism spectrum, students for whom English is not their first language). Any marking schedule that requires students to mangle language in this way is going to disadvantage some, especially in stressful timed assessments/exams where it’ll slow people down trying to remember the woke filter rules and to apply them.

Hypatia415 · 19/10/2019 09:29

It sounds like these are recommendations of style as opposed to a prescription or threat of marking people down if they're not 'woke' enough.

The reasoning that we should use non-gendered pronouns when we don't know a person's gender makes sense. What other pronouns would you use if you didn't know the gender of the person?

I is likely this guidance is to avoid the use of 'he' as a default as opposed to appeasing some form of unstated lobby.

if you know the person you are talking about is male or female, by all means, use 'he'. But from a style perspective I think avoidance of pronoun is generally fair.

vickyjgo · 19/10/2019 09:28

It sounds like they are preparing you for academic life and how to format essays so that they will get the widest reading. It's also a really good mind exercise to remove gender and see how that affects the way you think. Give it a try.

Herja · 19/10/2019 09:20

Oh god! I'd not even considered the characters! These essays will read most curiously Grin.

OP posts:
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/10/2019 09:18

Best excuse ever to be a raging misogynist but in a woke way, innit?

Dljlr · 19/10/2019 09:16

No, not 'normal' in the sense of it being a blanket academic practice. But there is an increasing awareness of the dominance of white, male scholarship informing many programmes, and efforts are being made to decolonianise the curriculum and include many more female voices in teaching. This latter effort has meant increased scrutiny on written assumptions of the male as norm. It's clunky to write s/he all the way through a piece of work so some lecturers are advising students as you've been advised, but that's just as ugly to my eyes.

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