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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Drag.

60 replies

omikron · 18/10/2019 10:38

I'm still struggling with whether Drag should be considered offensive to women.

On one hand I consider it to be in the same realm as Blackface.

On the other I see it as entertainment that was born out of the gay movement.

Can anyone persuade me to come down on one side or the other?

OP posts:
yeahbutnaw · 19/10/2019 05:32

This board: we want to abolish gender

Men: Okay, I’m gonna dress in clothes traditionally worn by women

This board: No, not like that

Goosefoot · 18/10/2019 18:44

A lot of gay men though have been seen as being feminine in some way, or effeminate if you want to put a not-nice spin on it. So around dress, mannerisms, speech patterns, social activities, and also of course sexuality.

So it seems logical to me that they might be interested in exploring the trappings of that, clothing, make up, etc. Are those things really about women, or a certain kind of gender stereotype? I think in a way they are about both but it's also tre that some people are drawn to the characterisations that typically are associated with the other sex. I think drag is often about that gap between femaleness and maleness when you try and make maleness feminine. That sounds convoluted, so maybe it won't be clear to anyone but me! To put it in another way, drag doesn't remind me much of a stereotype of women, it reminds me of a stereotype of gay men.

HandsOffMyRights · 18/10/2019 18:39

I think drag is fundamentally men making fun of women, and that's why I'm uneasy about it.

I agree.

WomensRightsAreContraversial · 18/10/2019 18:33

I think drag is fundamentally men making fun of women, and that's why I'm uneasy about it.
I have no problem with men acting a female character. I have a problem with men dressing like the biggest tart stereotype going and acting like the bitchiest stereotype going. I was uncomfortable with men in drag DJing/performing in gay bars as a young adult and it's only fairly recently that I can understand why.

Goosefoot · 18/10/2019 18:23

PJsatMidday

From your post, you seem to be moving in the direction of saying any depiction of anyone other than yourself is a problem. Or especially any real historical person.

Goosefoot · 18/10/2019 18:09

I think this will depend a lot on why you think it's a problem to impersonate someone, and what you think drag is really doing from a performance/social commentary POV.

I don't think it's inherently offensive to impersonate any group of people, even if its done in an exaggerated or political way. It can be done offensively (making fun of your grandmother at dinner is probably offensive), and historical context can come into it. But that is not the same as it being inherently offensive.

I know someone who thinks certain kinds of make up to impersonate are inherently offensive, so that would obviously lead to different conclusions about drag than the ones I might make.

FWIW, I don't think drag is necessarily really about women, I think it's more about masculinity, femininity, and social roles, and also sexuality and how it interacts with those things. My feelings about particular drag acts tends to reflect whether I agree with the performer's observations about those elements or not.

FWRLurker · 18/10/2019 17:53

I think women will reasonably disagree on this. I usually don’t have a problem with drag in that I consider it to be making fun of feminine stereotypes (which deserve making fun of) rather than making fun of women or “celebrating” feminine stereotypes.

What I don’t like are some of the misogyny that comes along - terms like “fish” for example. But, misogyny is ripe in all male communities including gay male communities so it’s not surprising or particular to drag.

OkayGo · 18/10/2019 12:49

Great post @PJsatMidday

PJsatMidday · 18/10/2019 12:40

This is a very difficult topic. I think intention can be everything (cruel pisstake or genuinely affectionate portrayal), but either way, it's the resulting effect on the "community" being portrayed - whether that's people of colour, or women, that counts, not the intention of the person in drag/blackface. The problem is, there is no unified view on drag in the "community" of women, so for every woman who hates it, there is an equal number who don't see the problem.

There's a much more definitive view on blackface in the "community" of black people (that it's wrong, whatever the intention); however, in the wider community of human beings, many white people continue to not see a problem (e.g., Justin Trudeau, the wokest of woke political leaders, couldn't see the problem until it was spelled out to him).

I went to a party recently. There were 2 white women there portraying black women. One was there as Mel B (so called Scary Spice). She was dressed in a leopard skin outfit, the typical style of that singer. She did not wear black face, nor did she wear an afro. She didn't "act" in any way other than herself, apart from going into character for photos (typical Spice Girls type pose). So her portrayal was more or less just clothes. For the purposes of the event, however, she was saying: I am a black woman, Mel C.

The other was there as Sinitta. She wore jet black paint all over her body (nothing like Sinitta's skin colour) and an afro, as well as an 80s outfit, apparently relevant to that singer's style. She also seemed to be acting "in character" all evening, although that character didn't seem to be anything like the impression I have of Sinitta. Nevertheless, she was, for the night, saying, tonight, I am a black woman, Sinitta.

Both their intentions were good (so I understand). But were they both racist? In the Sinitta example, yes, undoubtedly, even if unintentionally. In the Mel B example, I am not so sure, to be honest.

So drawing an analogy with drag: In scenario 1, is donning particular clothes to be a particular black woman racist? Is a man donning particular clothes to be a particular woman misogyny? In the absence of any other cosmetic embellishments or character behaviour, just the clothes, is it wrong? Just to be clear, neither party is being themselves in this scenario (so not like Julian Clary, who is just being Julian Clary when he wears a skirt), they are being someone else. Or, is it the behaviour/character portrayal/physical embellishments that is the terrible part - the grotesque aspect (in the Sinitta example, the black make up and wig, in a drag scenario, the exaggerated "female" behaviour, e.g. Widow Twanky nagging/fainting/flirting)? If it's the grotesque aspects that are the problem, this seems to be a sliding scale|: at what point does someone tip the scales?

Here's another example of the sliding scale: Robert Webb doing the Flashdance skit for Comic Relief. He did the famous dance, but he also wore a leotard, which indicated female. Was he just being Robert Webb wearing a leotard, or was he saying, I am portraying a woman?. He wore a curly wig to have hair like Jennifer Beals, who is mixed race. So, was he not being Robert Webb? Was he saying, I am being the character from Flashdance, a mixed race woman? IIRC, nobody has condemned it as sexist or racist. Is it because the intention was kind (Comic Relief)? That the dance performance was unexpectedly good? That it's Robert Webb, whom everyone seems to like? It was a grotesque, talented dance aside, he was doing an exaggerated version of Jennifer Beals' acting/dancing performance. Is it that most people don't realise she is black? Is it that most people don't care about a woman, whatever the colour? Why didn't he tip the balance?

PP said History of drag in theatre goes back such a long way. Some are grotesques, yes, but they don’t say all women are like that, just the character they don with the dress and make up.

Does it matter whether it's a real life character that's being portrayed? If not, is that a free pass for blackface, as long as it's not a real person or "not all black people" ? There's a long history/tradition of black face too.

DaveMyHat · 18/10/2019 12:30

He didn't do drag though. He was - for the time - an outrageously camp effeminate gay man. I don't ever remember him adopting a 'female' persona. And, he's wickedly funny, which is why he's now something of a 'national treasure' - he's as funny on radio 4 playing Just a Minute.

Oops my mistake. Someone mentioned Dame Edna above.. that is a name I remember as the kind of thing I watched as a child and liked.

2BthatUnnoticed · 18/10/2019 12:27

Interesting question - I’m wary of drag and don’t like it coming into libraries et al.

At a gay club, as entertainment? In two minds - it can be mocking but also celebratory.

Also, can I respectfully suggest avoiding comparing Drag / TW to Blackface if possible. A number of black women have explained why it is a painful and inaccurate comparison for them, and we can critique drag without it.

I say this as someone who said it myself in the past Blush

TankGirl97 · 18/10/2019 12:12

I really enjoy rupaul’s drag race. I don’t think it’s men taking the piss out of women (no doubt that kind of drag does exist though).
I see people from a historically very marginalised group who have found something they love and people who accept them. I think when they started it must have been very liberating. Hearing their stories, I see no piss-taking at all.
I hate shite like Mrs Browns Boys.

FilthyBiscuit · 18/10/2019 12:12

I used to think it was fun. I now find it really sinister and offensive. The parody of women - bitchy, overmade up, full of innuendos. And the sexualised names of a lot of them.
And they are going into schools. How is this becoming mainstream?

terryleather · 18/10/2019 12:01

Julian Clary was fabulous, an 80s icon, but I agree with Errol he wasn't doing drag.

I remember my mother being fascinated by him and his make up!

ThreeLittleDinos · 18/10/2019 11:58

I think it depends on how it's done. It can 110% be offensive, but also things like Mrs Browns Boys I find hilarious. But it's not sexual, I don't feel it's a parody/ mockery of women, as a lot of drag is.

HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 18/10/2019 11:52

I really dislike the fact that when I click on iPlayer, Drag Race is permanently huge at the top of the screen..

Me too. It looks like shite.

Like I said above, who is the audience for this stuff?

ErrolTheDragon · 18/10/2019 11:51

When I was younger I liked the ones I used to see on TV. I think Julian Clary may have been one. I was a child and watching family television so perhaps it's not a great thing to base my views on, but it seemed to not take itself seriously and it was funny.

He didn't do drag though. He was - for the time - an outrageously camp effeminate gay man. I don't ever remember him adopting a 'female' persona. And, he's wickedly funny, which is why he's now something of a 'national treasure' - he's as funny on radio 4 playing Just a Minute.

WomaninBoots · 18/10/2019 11:51

Oh and I hate when people start saying things about traditions of men dressing as women going back to Shakespeare... without mentioning that that happened because real women were not allowed on stage!

WomaninBoots · 18/10/2019 11:49

I really dislike drag. I think it's crass and I think it's men taking the piss out of women.

I really dislike the fact that when I click on iPlayer, Drag Race is permanently huge at the top of the screen. It's really being pushed. Why?

terryleather · 18/10/2019 11:46

There was a thread about this a few weeks ago (where's R0 when you need her)?

It helped me to work out that the drag that I love - Lily Savage, Cissy & Ada, Dame Edna for eg - are men playing characters rather than the RuPaul type of drag that I'm often uncomfortable with.

mement0mori · 18/10/2019 11:46

I am not remotely interested in adult drag but I also don't find myself being particularly offended by it either. I'm not convinced it is like black face. Clothes and make up are not really comparable to skin colour. I think child drag can be inappropriate esp if done for adult gratification.

HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 18/10/2019 11:37

Does anyone know what demographic watch things like RPdrag on the telly?

Is it a gay thing?

I can't imagine straight men are interested.

HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 18/10/2019 11:34

I like what Arnold's has just said.

So these men are taking he piss out of a particular kind of (fairly rare) women.

Newuser123123 · 18/10/2019 11:34

Mrs Brown's boys 😭

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 18/10/2019 11:23

I'd like to know why women dressing as men for laughs is not (as) hugely popular

I guess because most women dress 'like men' on a day to day basis. In real life both men and women routinely wear trousers, tops, no make up. A woman dressing 'like a man' is unremarkable, ordinary. A man dressing like the most ridiculously over the top appearance of a tiny minority of women who ever dress that way is, by contrast, vaguely note worthy.

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