Drag.

Fundamentally, the inequality of power is at the core of why it's wrong. That's also why it was wrong for minstrels to parody blacks in the US.

White minstrels did it to parade and authenticate THEIR whiteness, to demonstrate they could dehumanize blacks and have an audience cheer.

Men can don the costume of woman and portray us as THEY wish. Stupid, shallow, petty, hypersexualized, and my personal favorite (seen at a live show years ago), asking to be raped. How is this ok? How can any feminist support this? I still have yet to see any response (over the many discussions on MN about drag) that make me question my thoughts on this.

My feminism centers women, not gay men.

Can anyone persuade me to come down on one side or the other?

Just watch RuPaul's Drag Race or go to a drag show and see if you're happy with all the misogynistic jokes and comments.

Drag doesn't celebrate femininity, it legitimises the rampant misogyny that has pervaded the male gay community for years.

White men almost always "punch down", whether violently or in mockery.
Even when they try to mock themselves, like Python did, they end up punching down more often than they think.

I don't like it for many of the reasons above and I also wonder who watches it. At mil's yesterday when an advert for the programme was on the tv and it just looked shit; neither funny nor interesting. What's the point of it?

This board: we want to abolish gender

Men: Okay, I’m gonna dress in clothes traditionally worn by women

This board: No, not like that

Let me fix that for you:

This board: we want to abolish gender

Men: Okay, I'm gonna dress in a hypersexualised way and make jokes about women smelling like fish

This board: fuck off you inadequate wanker

This board: we want to abolish gender Men: Okay, I’m gonna dress in clothes traditionally worn by women

It's not the clothing, it is the often offensive language and disdainful portrayals. everyone is encouraged to look upon the 'woman' as a 'right old slapper', 'easy shag', 'slag' etc It is most often hyper-sexualised, crude and disdainful.

Clothes and make up are not really comparable to skin colour

But mimicking breasts is.....

Is 'blacking up' inherently offensive for a white person to do -whatever the context? If so, & using the same criteria, then so is drag - especially when so much derogatory language is used about women too.

Can anyone persuade me to come down on one side or the other?

For me it is not an intellectual exercise....I have always found it distasteful, and yes, offensive. That is just based on instinctive response.

Plus when I made the effort to watch the first episode Ru-Paul' Drag Race. the other day - I found much of the chat very offensive.Calling women slappers & slags, and making references and gestures to bad smelling, foul genitalia, just for starters.

in general I think we are too ready to clam people are hateful or phobic when they disagree with something presented as being relevant to some sort of progressive movement.

This is an excellent point in its own right @goose and I agree.

I'm not homophobic and I do understand how it has arisen as part of gay culture. But it still uses the "feminine is lesser/degrading" premise which is why it feels offensive and why it needs to be challenged.

I don't think its homophobic to have a problem with drag, in general I think we are too ready to clam people are hateful or phobic when they disagree with something presented as being relevant to some sort of progressive movement.

But I suppose what I wonder is if drag is always or has to be about this idea that the feminine is lesser? I know there is drag that is done that way, but then there is music and films and paintings like that as well, and it reflects the people doing them. Even if a lot of films were like that I'd not say they have to be.

But is what drag is always about, in the same way that I would say that pornography is always about exploiting people sexually? I would tend to say it's not even if its common.

Blackface comparisons, and "costumes you can't take off" comparisons, to me don't work. Blackface, in the sense of American minstrel shows, are a problem to me for specific historical reasons. I do not think it is an inherent problem to dress up in a theatrical way as another person or ethnicity or sex, or whatever our particular society thinks race is.

I think I would be pleased too, in that I would have got what I wanted because I think I am in the right. But perhaps I am wrong, and then we would hugely stigmatise something that has/had a value for lots of people (men, mostly) and still not have had any effect on how women are perceived (eg catty, ornamental, sexual etc).
I wonder if, like the trans debate, the line is crossed when we call drag artists women, rather than acknowledging them for what they are; men playing a caricature of a certain type of woman.

Well if drag got to the same level of cultural unacceptability as blackface I would be very amazed but also I wouldn't be upset by that, I'd be pleased by that. But it getting there because society has progressed to the point where it's just not funny or entertaining for anyone is different than just banning it. Don't you think? Even if, in effect, the same thing has happened.

But personally I'm not going to be hounding anyone out of their jobs for performing drag or watching drag or even defending drag. I'm just going to keep saying what I think and how I feel about it.

I think the costume you can't take off element mentioned above is important to recognise.

I wonder, though, @GeorgeFayne and @WomaninBoots, if holding drag in such contempt and considering it so culturally unacceptable is effectively the same thing as a ban, particularly if you're likely to lose your job/friends/status because of it.
An academic argument, rather than one I necessarily stand by.
What do you think?

I don't 'get' drag, don't watch it, and don't understand the fascination that people have with it.

I think some of the comedy aspects of drag can be very problematic. A middle class man making jokes at the expense of working class women, women with substance abuse issues, or making jokes about rape/sexual assault /birth injury is definitely problematic.

I don't think a man wearing a dress and makeup is inherently offensive. I think when it's just about the look, it's interesting and can help break down gender stereotypes.

I think when men choose to wear fake breasts etc, and use them in a potentially erotic/sexualized way, again, that can be really problematic and the men involved should remember that while this is a costume they can take off, women don't have the same option.

I think as drag becomes more mainstream, and you have straight men doing it, that is even more problematic- although I can't explain exactly why I feel that way.

Would it be offensive if women staged acts where they dressed up in bare-assed chaps, sang songs about glory-holes, waved exaggerated limp wrists, shrieked in tenor voices about flower-arranging and the new bottom next door, and referred to gay men with a word that referenced the smell of smegma?

In most states here in the US, blackface is not illegal. That said, it is considered so culturally unacceptable that to engage in it will likely result in significant negative outcomes, such as being fired from a job, ostracism from friends and social circles, and losing any community or elected positions.

I agree that banning drag violates free speech and expression. But I'd love to raise my daughters in a world where it would be considered equally unacceptable to parody women as vapid, worthless, comical creatures, and where our anatomy and physiology aren't the subjects of ridicule and scorn. This isn't entertainment; this is a reminder that men, gay or straight, continue to call the shots. It's the balance of power, dressed up in lipstick and stripper heels.

Even more curious to find support for drag on a feminist forum...the effectiveness of socialization, I suppose. A little sad.

Ive gone off authoritarianism so I've gone off banning things but I would also like to be able to speak freely about why I find drag problematic without someone popping up and saying "homophobe" which seems to inevitably happen. I'm not homophobic and I do understand how it has arisen as part of gay culture. But it still uses the "feminine is lesser/degrading" premise which is why it feels offensive and why it needs to be challenged.

I am also uncomfortable with the promotion of drag into mainstream culture. I would like that not to happen. But that isn't the same as wanting it banned. Banning wouldn't work anyway. Consciousness raising might.

I'd be quite interested in MNHQ organising a Q&A session with a drag queen, like they do with public figures.

I have no issues with drag artists, both male and female because I think it's more social observation than a piss take of either gender.

On the subject of Rupaul's drag race, the US and UK editions are very different, the UK drag scene in my opinion is completely different to the American (this is limited to me seeing drag acts in the UK only, both in bars, usually UK artists and in a theatre set up, i.e. Bianca Del Rio who has done a few huge UK tours)

On the other hand my brother feels very uncomfortable around drag artists, he can't explain why, but from a very young age he would get very upset even at panto with the Dame on stage.

AS I've got older I've increasingly seen it as a fairly unpleasant parody of women, based on an extreme gender stereotype. Therefore I suppose I find it somewhat 'offensive'.
However, just because I disagree with something, almost however strongly, I think there must be more evidence that it does actual harm before I would lobby for any action against it (eg banning). It speaks to my support of free speech and free will as far as it does no material harm.
So yes I disagree with it, but I couldn't support any action against it.

I think it is parodying women and is offensive.

It’s not just clothes either, as some posters have suggested. It’s also fake breasts etc. which to my mind is pretty similar to black-face.

Would it be offensive if women staged acts where they dressed up in bare-assed chaps, sang songs about glory-holes, waved exaggerated limp wrists, shrieked in tenor voices about flower-arranging and the new bottom next door, and referred to gay men with a word that referenced the smell of smegma?

I’m guessing yes.

Fundamentally, drag is lip synching in bad wigs

I don't think men inhibiting themselves in the trappings of femininity is what abolishing gender looks like.

What abolishing gender looks like is an interesting question. But it doesn't look like drag acts.

I can see the gay men embracing the "effeminate" argument. I can. I just think the whole thing is based on the feminine being lesser and over sexualized and for laughing at/ using for entertainment.

Its like culturally women are pressured to look a certain way and then someone comes along and take the pee out of the way women are pressured to look while still the pressure remains. And it's more than the dressing as well. It plays on stereotypes of women that are damaging to women. And I don't think men emphasising those stereotypes is a great thing.

I think there's nuance because you know dressing up as the opposite sex and being a really OTT character in the context of a comedy sketch show for example seems ok to me. But there's a line where it starts to feel uncomfortable and offensive. And when you start getting terminology like "fishy" bandied around you know you're well over that line.

Whether or not it is part of gay culture is irrelevant. Would blackface be any more acceptable if it were on the faces of gay men?

Parodying and mocking the "characteristics" of a group, especially one that is suppressed, is wrong, whether it be blacks or women. I can see no defense of drag on any basis; it is pure misogyny at its finest.