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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Should transgender women be allowed to play women's sports?

229 replies

andyoldlabour · 17/10/2019 15:41

Well, obviously we have pretty much one set of views on that, but this video from the US shows both sets of views, and intelligence wise I know which side I am supporting.

OP posts:
aliasundercover · 18/10/2019 11:02

Why do I care?

I'm a hug sports fan. I watch and participate in lots of sport.

One of my particular favourites is cycling. I like to watch the best in each category - men, juniors, seniors ... and yes, even women.

What I don't want to do is watch the best men, then watch a bunch of mediocre men who were not good enough to qualify.

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 11:02

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ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 11:01

In 2017, advocates tracked at least 29 deaths of transgender people in the United States due to fatal violence, the most ever recorded. These victims were killed by acquaintances, partners and strangers, some of whom have been arrested and charged, while others have yet to be identified. Some of these cases involve clear anti-transgender bias. In others, the victim’s transgender status may have put them at risk in other ways, such as forcing them into homelessness.

While the details of these cases differ, it is clear that fatal violence disproportionately affects transgender women of color, and that the intersections of racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia conspire to deprive them of employment, housing, healthcare and other necessities, barriers that make them vulnerable.

As is too often the case in the reporting of anti-transgender violence, many of these victims are misgendered in local police statements and media reports, which can delay our awareness of deadly incidents. In the pursuit of greater accuracy and respect for transgender and gender expansive people in both life and death, HRC offers guidelines for journalists and others who report on transgender people.

Sadly, 2018 has already seen at least 26 transgender people fatally shot or killed by other violent means. As HRC continues to work toward justice and equality for transgender people, we mourn those we have lost:

Christa Leigh Steele-Knudslien, 42, was found dead in her home on January 5 in North Adams, Massachusetts. Steele-Knudslien organized and produced the Miss Trans New England and other pageants, and was loved and known by many in both the local and national trans community.
Viccky Gutierrez, 33, a transgender woman from Honduras was stabbed and had her body set ablaze inside her Los Angeles home on January 10. Friends described her as “a young trans Latina immigrant woman whose warm smile would give anyone comfort.” 
Celine Walker, 36, was fatally shot in a hotel room on on February 4 in Jacksonville, Florida. It was not known for several days that Walker was trans because local police claimed to not refer to victims as transgender. Investigators are still looking for a suspect in her death.
Tonya Harvey, 35, was fatally shot on February 6 in Buffalo, New York. A friend of Harvey’s expressed her condolences on Facebook, writing: “I knew her since I started transitioning, she was so sweet and loving.” Police have confirmed they are looking into the incident as a possible hate crime. 
Zakaria Fry, 28, went missing in New Mexico in mid-January. Her body was later found 40 miles outside of Albuquerque on February 19. Albuquerque Police arrested and charged Charles Spiess with two open counts of murder. Fry's loved ones shared condolences on Facebook with one friend saying: "You were my older sister. You took care of me and loved me like family. I’ll forever love you. I’m sorry.”
Phylicia Mitchell, 45, was shot and killed outside her home on February 23 in Cleveland, Ohio. On April 10, Cleveland.com reported that a warrant has been issued for the arrest of Gary Sanders. Sanders was charged with aggravated murder in Mitchell's death. Her longtime partner, Shane Mitchell, described her as "funny and kind" and that "everyone loved her."
Amia Tyrae Berryman, 28, was fatally shot at a local motel on March 26 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Few details are known about the crime, and police report they have no suspects or persons of interest at this time.
Sasha Wall, 29, a transgender woman of color, was fatally shot on April 1 in Chesterfield County, South Carolina. The FBI is assisting with local investigators, and are analyzing phone records and collecting DNA evidence. Donovan Dunlap, a friend of Wall’s, expressed condolences on Facebook, writing, “I will miss you my beautiful sister. I cannot sleep, I hope they find who did this.” 
Karla Patricia Flores-Pavón, 26, was found choked to death in her apartment in Dallas, Texas, on May 9. Dallas Police arrested 24-year-old Jimmy Eugene Johnson III on May 17, charging him with Flores-Pavón’s murder. "It hurts a lot, you were a good-hearted person. Sister, fly high. We will remember you with love. Your beautiful smile will stay with us,” a friend posted on her Facebook page.
Nino Fortson, 36, was fatally shot in Atlanta on May 13. City police were nearby executing a traffic stop and rushed to the scene, but Forston later died at the hospital, said transgender advocate Monica Roberts.
Gigi Pierce, 28, was fatally shot on May 21 in Portland, Oregon. When officers arrived they tried to administer aid, but Pierce died at the scene. Police investigators say they believe that Pierce was shot during an altercation with Sophia Adler, who has been charged with Pierce’s murder, according to KGW-TV.
Roxana Hernández, 33, passed away on May 25 while in the custody of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) after fleeing violence and discrimination in Honduras. After an autopsy report strongly indicated Hernández was beaten in ICE custody before her death, the agency is falsely claiming its press release announcing her death constitutes its report and is disputing the accuracy of eyewitness accounts of abuse from detainees held with her in custody prior to her death.
Antash'a English, 38, was fatally injured in drive-by shooting in Jacksonville, Florida on June 1. On her Facebook page, English described herself as an “independent” transgender woman who “thrives on being the best person” she can be. The Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office has declared an active murder investigation and asks anyone with information to contact their office.
Diamond Stephens, 39, was found shot to death on June 18 in Meridian, Mississippi. In interviews with a local television station, family members said that Stephens had an “incredible personality.” As is too often the case in the reporting of anti-transgender violence, Stephens was originally misgendered in local police statements and media reports, which delayed our awareness of this deadly incident.
Cathalina Christina James, 24, was fatally shot in Jacksonville, Florida, on June 24. In an interview with First Coast News, James’ mother described her daughter as having a “big and bold” personality, saying she loved to dance and travel. James is the third transgender woman murdered and the fourth shot in the Florida city this year.
Keisha Wells, 54, was found dead with a gunshot wound to her abdomen in the parking lot of an apartment complex on June 24, according to Cleveland.com. A longtime friend of Wells described her as “the nicest person ever” but also a “tough cookie.”
Sasha Garden, 27, was found dead with signs of trauma in Orlando, Florida, early July 19. Originally from Wisconsin, Garden is remembered by loved ones as a “firecracker” who “didn’t hold anything back.” Friend and local transgender activist Mulan Montrese Williams recalls that Garden was a talented and aspiring hair stylist and had been saving money to fund her transition.
Vontashia Bell, 18, was fatally shot on August 30 in a neighborhood of Shreveport, Lousiana. The Louisiana Trans Advocates organization released a statement condemning the shooting and calling on the city’s leaders to help curb the violence against the trans community.
Dejanay Stanton, 24, was found with a fatal gunshot wound to the head on August 30, according to media reports. After an autopsy, her death was ruled a homicide and the investigation is ongoing. “Every time you saw her she had a smile on her face," said LaSaia Wade, executive director of Brave Space Alliance. “She was just trying to live her best life as a young girl.”
Shantee Tucker, 30, was found with a fatal gunshot wound in the back in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on Sept. 5. Friends and family honored her life and mourned her death on Facebook, recalling that she was like “another big sister” to them and remembering her “beautiful spirit and fun aura.”
Londonn Moore, 20, was found dead of multiple gunshot wounds in a remote area of North Port, Florida on Sept. 8. Moore is remembered by her family and other loved ones, who described her as “hilarious” and someone who “made everyone laugh all the time.”
Nikki Enriquez, 28, was one of four women killed in Sept. in what local officials describe as a “serial killing spree” allegedly carried out by an intel supervisor for the U.S. Border Patrol. Enriquez, who also went by the name Janelle, is survived by numerous loved ones that were “sad and in disbelief” at her death. Cousin Veronica Castillo described her as a “very outgoing” person who loved to party and was beloved by the local LGBTQ community.
Ciara Minaj Carter Frazier, 31, was fatally stabbed and her body left behind an abandoned building by a man with whom she was arguing on October 3 in Chicago. As reported in the Sun Times, Chicago police declared Frazier’s death a homicide after appearing on the scene. She is remembered by friends and loved ones, who said that she will “always be missed.”
Regina Denise Brown, 53, a trans woman of color, was found dead in her burning home in South Carolina on October 7. Authorities charged Jenkins with murder in November after he confessed to killing Brown during a physical altercation. Brown was described as a “great lady with a big heart” to PinkNews. 
Tydi Dansbury, 37, a Black transgender woman, was fatally shot in Baltimore on November 26. Few details are known about the circumstances of her death, and the Baltimore Police Department is urging anyone with information to come forward.
Keanna Mattel, 35, a Black transgender woman, was fatally shot in Detroit, Michigan on December 7. In 2015, Mattel, who also went by the name Kelly Stough, spoke against anti-trans violence epidemic, noting that “police are unaware with our struggle so they have no sympathy for us.”  Friends remember Mattel as “a sweetheart and beautiful character.”

In addition to the cases above, HRC is deeply concerned about another incident which we are following closely. On July 19, 30-year-old Jessie Sumlar was found stabbed to death in Jacksonville, Florida. According to loved ones, Sumlar regularly performed in drag and identified as queer. HRC calls for further investigation into the causes of Sumlar's death, including whether discriminatory bias toward transgender and/or gender non-conforming people played a motivating factor.

In November of 2018, HRC Foundation released "A National Epidemic: Fatal Anti-Transgender Violence in America in 2018," a heartbreaking report honoring the at least 22 transgender people killed in 2018 and detailing the contributing and motivating factors that lead to this tragic violence.

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 10:59

No, because it endangers an entire group of people.

You don't get to choose to disgaree with peoples' existence.

Its a non-issue. The trans community are not a danger to women.

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/10/2019 10:57

I respect your right to believe whatever you like. Please respect my right to do the same.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 18/10/2019 10:56

That’s because to believe TWAW is a faith based ideology.

Indeed, there is not a single shred of credible evidence to support the entirely ideological position that 'gender identities' even exist. No one has ever come up with a sensible definition never mind any actual evidence. It is all ridiculous nonsense, which is why the public are opposed by a massive majority to allowing XY people into women's sports.

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 10:55

I am a woman. The trans community are not a threat to my existence. You're deluded if you believe otherwise.

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/10/2019 10:54

die angry about it people cos nothing is going to change

Thank you for illustrating so beautifully the utter contempt supporters of this movement have for women, women's feelings, women's rights, women's safety, in fact anything at all involving an accident of birth involving XX chromosomes.

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 10:51

you all keep saying its unfair to women but get this, trans women are women whether you agree with it or not.

You can kick, scream and cry about it but nothing will change.

Trans women are women
Trans men are men

The biggest threat to women is statistically the straight white male

Get over it guys it's really not that deep

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 10:48

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LollyBeebee123 · 18/10/2019 10:08

No!

SirVixofVixHall · 18/10/2019 10:06

Hmm, yes OP, do you mean women who are transgender ? Eg transmen ? Or men who are trans , eg transwomen ? Because “transgender women “ suggests the former, even though I had assumed the latter.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 18/10/2019 09:53

I assumed ‘transgender women’ were women who are transgender (aka transmen). In this case they remove themselves from female sports if they take testosterone (aka doping). Men who are transgender (aka transwomen) are obviously male and therefore should take part in men’s sports.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 18/10/2019 09:48

As for why do I care?

I am a sports fan. I want to watch elite men against elite men and elite women against elite women. I do not want to watch elite women against mediocre XY people.

Women are not on this planet to make XY people feel validated. We are completely different physiologically to XY people. There can never be fair competition between women and non-women. Women should not be asked, ever, to give up our hard fought sporting spaces, they are for women and only women.

LuItaliana · 18/10/2019 09:43

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 18/10/2019 09:38

Oh dear, I see my post has been deleted for stating biological facts.

Allow me to rephrase.

Not under any circumstances, no.

Women's sports are for women, not 100% non-women regardless of those XY people's 'feelings'.

JoyceJeffries · 18/10/2019 09:36

That’s because to believe TWAW is a faith based ideology.

If you don’t believe then you are a terf (heretic), if you detransition then you are excommunicated. TRAs are like priests - untouchable and a higher cast.
Let’s not miss the obvious correlation women (cunty variety) are of the lower orders. Good for making the tea, cleaning the church etc but are never allowed to be priests/TRAs.

andyoldlabour · 18/10/2019 09:31

Thanks for all the replies (even if I don't agree with a very small number of them). I started this thread, because I watched that video from beginning to end, despite it being uncomfortable at times.
There were two groups being interviewed and both had opposing views, there was no middle ground.
However, one group to my mind was vastly more intelligent and pragmatic with their arguments.
The other group however could not give any coherent reason why transwomen should not be allowed to compete in women's sports, apart from shouting TWAW.

OP posts:
andyoldlabour · 18/10/2019 09:14

"No because they are not female they are male."

Exactly, it really is as simple as that.

OP posts:
Salene · 18/10/2019 07:39

No because they are not female they are male.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/10/2019 07:18

Imagine where we'd be if at every point in history where bad shit was happening people just went "oh, well, unfortunately it's happening anyway so..."

NotBadConsidering · 18/10/2019 07:17

It is already happening though and us raising objections in here is not, unfortunately, going to stop it.

Rubbish. This forum helps support people like Sharron Davies who have a public voice to oppose it. Just this week the IAAF have dropped the testosterone levels, which isn’t the final answer but it’s a start. There is huge pressure from all sources; look at the ratios on tweets like those from NZ Olympics about Hubbard, the Australian cricket announcement etc. People aren’t standing for it. It’s not a done deal at all.

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 18/10/2019 07:07

Reasons to care ..

  • potential for physical injuries
  • denial of opportunities, such as the teenage girls bit getting a chance to compete for college students in the US
  • girls not having positive role models to look up to in sport
  • boys being manipulated to change gender to win sporting events
Ringdonna · 18/10/2019 06:35

It is already happening though and us raising objections in here is not, unfortunately, going to stop it.

WomanBornNotWorn · 18/10/2019 06:30

No.

I can think of very few sports where women have advantage. Jockeys and coxwains, maybe.

We need space and opportunities for all - men, women, trans men, trans women, same for Paralympics, children ... Sport managed to let women play (eventually), so can evolve again.