Trans chat

Well said, BabyJakesMum.

Please, for the love of God, tell me that the OP wasn't claiming that the 1968 playground jibe of go take a long walk off a short pier, was an exhortation to kill herself.

And was it only my brother who regularly added, preferably in shark infested waters?

Yes @MNHQ for the avoidance of any doubt, and to prevent it becoming a stick to beat MN with, could you confirm if a poster was told to 'kill themself'?

There are more than enough falsehoods and rumours being perpetuated about this board, so it would be good if we could either be able to denounce it as a lie, or that the poster who said it was banned.

One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

Nobody’s writing all men off as anything. But because the statistics show that most - not all, most - sexual & violent offenders are male & most victims are female, where women might be vulnerable we have single sex spaces for privacy and safety.

Ruth Hunt of Stonewall’s view on this was a dismissive ‘Men are always going to rape women’ so our concerns about gender ID are irrelevant. Does that seem a reasonable view to you, Babyjakesmum and Hypatia?

Barbara

Report your own post and ask for clarification, HQ have a better chance of seeing it than tagging them.

@MNHQ OP has made the claim that someone told her to "kill yourself".

The only deleted posts I can see are from FWR regulars, many of whom I have "known" for a long time, who I do not believe would say such a thing. @MNHQ are in a position to see the deleted threads. Could you confirm whether

1. one of the deleted posts did indeed say "kill yourself", in which case could you also confirm that the poster in question has been banned, as indeed they should be, if they actually said this?

2. whether OP is in fact grossly exaggerating what was said to her? In which case the post should be deleted.

3. whether (charitably) it is in fact a misunderstanding (for instance, someone saying "if you said XYZ on twitter, you'd be told by TRAs to 'kill yourself/die in a grease fire/etc.'", and OP has somehow misunderstood that to mean the imperative rather than subjunctive, and also somehow misunderstood it to be directed at her personally."

It seems to me that OP's accusation is a very serious one, so (partly in the interests of ensuring that the MN moderating policy is being adhered to) I'd like to know whether that accusation is true, or whether it's groundless.

One of the most frightening parts is how much of it is based upon misinformation or arguments that take one example of a person's unpardonable behaviour as being somehow indicative of a whole group of people

The issue is one of first order principles, not specific individuals.

Mumsnet remains one of the very few places in which people can gather to discuss and debate this most important issue.

And that's why it's so important for TRA's to close it down.

Awww. Did the Upfield thing slap the genderists in the face with a wet fish? Did Justine refuse to tighten the scolds bridle? Is the only thing left to flood FWR with ad hominem, hyperbole and demands to perform female socialisation?

Diddums.

most people are not even aware of Mumsnet

My actual point in posting was about the tone of the debate on here and how damaging and harmful that is both here, to trans people in general and to the reputation of Mumsnet, which used to be such a positive environment

I agree the tone on some threads can get a little dismissive and aggressive, but then this is a public forum, with people from all backgrounds and persuasions, and with different personal styles.

I came to Mumsnet just this year - precisely for informed discussion and information on the Trans debate, as it is, for me, a hugely important issue, and has got me really fired up. not because I'm prejudiced, but because I could see, right from the off, the profound nature of what was being peddled and purported; and deeply concerned about what was going on in the name of Trans rights.

Public forums are precisely that. I'm not sure that most people are not even aware of Mumsnet, really ( I wasn't until a few months ago) - and the main protagonists tend to be trans rights activists and their allies - who regularly troll and provoke.

Mumsnet remains one of the very few places in which people can gather to discuss and debate this most important issue.

"or you would see me having posted on here continually back when MN first started, so I do know how it has changed over time."

I too posted back when it was all green fields and dial-up internet access. MN has never really been a safe space. People have always disagreed with each other. Even during the SWMNBN days there were still people who started threads to say that they agreed with her and her methods.

"I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals."

And yet you have written off an entire site with millions of users based on how many posts?

Flouncers have always been given short shrift on MN - especially when the flouncer includes a "you're all so mean!"" narrative in their posts.

So Hypatia415 anything to back up 'you're all so transphobic post?' Why you think women's prisons should be mixed sex? Given 98% of sex crimes are committed by men, why maintaining sex segregation for the safety of women is a bad thing? Given that the number of Karen White cases should and was zero under sex segregated system , why is any change justified at the cost to assaults on women?
I don't expect an answer anytime soon. Until then please whine somewhere else.

Basically, as a woman, you can have rights as long as nobody else disagrees with it. But now there's a bunch of people disagreeing with it. Women want safe male free spaces and to keep women's sports fair? Yup they're transphobic assholes. It is ridiculous.

Fair summary there.

OP: plopping a 'you're all hateful' thread on FWR and then saying that people replying in large numbers (this is a well-used forum, mostly populated by intelligent, well-read people - we're going to use our right of reply if accused of "hate") somehow proves you're right is more than a tad silly.

I looked at a thread on AIBU (I think) the other day, about the paedophile who was murdered in jail. It's been in the news too, and a very small amount of background into his crimes was included in one report I heard on the radio. It made me understand the absolute scorching loathing on that AIBU thread, and the prevalent opinion that his murder was, in many ways, a good thing.

Something that I've recently experienced (at a distance) IRL has made me very conscious of his victims. The one mentioned on the radio was a 3 year old girl. I don't know when the crimes were committed, but I'm imagining that little girl is now perhaps old enough to go into town with her friends, to the cinema, to McDonalds. Whether she's recovered enough from the trauma is another matter, but if she has, imagine how utterly appalling and terrifying it would be for her to come out of a toilet and be confronted by a male-bodied person in that space. A male-bodied person who insisted he was, in fact, a woman - contrary to the evidence of her own eyes.

I know that the person I have encountered IRL lives an extremely precarious existence, some 30 years after her horrific abuse. It has left massively debilitating mental scars and she needs to be incredibly careful about where she goes and what she does. She will never be free of it. Sometimes she can manage it, but not always. In fact, not even most of the time. If the sanctuary of female-only spaces is removed, those occasional bright days of going out and having some kind of normal life will be taken from her as well.

Sorry for the derail, but this silly parroting of 'safe spaces' in relation to an online talk forum has enraged me. As has the focus on 'being kind' to trans women, without the slightest consideration of how that 'kindness' impacts on the wellbeing of women who are far more vulnerable.

One of the most frightening parts is how much of it is based upon misinformation or arguments that take one example of a person's unpardonable behaviour as being somehow indicative of a whole group of people.

Yeah no one does that, because that would be silly, wouldn't it? The same way that we don't conclude that all men rape, because some men rape. The way we don't conclude that all men are violent, because some men are violent.

The way we didn't decide during the #MeToo campaign that it applied to all men, (although you'd be forgiven for concluding that, as it seemed to be an awful of them).

But what's really, very telling, and tedious in its prevalence, is how you can't help focusing on the men. Always and exclusively.

Why can't you ever think about the women, for a teeny, tiny change?

The fact that 20% of us will suffer some kind of sexual assault in our life. Or that two women a week are murdered by their male partners, often after a lifetime of abuse. Or the 64% of female prison inmates who have suffered from domestic violence. How about the women in a rape refuge, who are accessing it because of male violence and sexual abuse, often with nothing more than a bin bag of toys and their children in tow.

Or how about the whopping nearly 40% of schoolgirls who have been sexually harassed in school. Or the children in school who then have to share a classroom with their rapist.

How about, for once, in your enclosed hermetically sealed, misogynistic bubble, deciding that the women and girls who suffer from all this deserve a space where they can recover or escape. Where they can breathe, talk, disrobe, or perform an intimate bodily function without fear.

Ask yourself why you are utterly incapable of thinking of these women and girls? Why they simply never enter your head. Ask yourself why, instead, you celebrate and applaud the men who insist on following these women into their spaces, and will threaten, hit, and abuse to make sure they do.

And if, if your trans friends or family respect the rights to privacy of women and girls, then you have nothing to worry about,

do you.

@grimbles excellent idea

I really worry that many people are coming on to these boards with little frame of reference or knowledge about trans people and this is their introduction.

This board is full of well-informed women so it's a great place to get an introduction. They'll soon discover that children are being experimented on with untested drugs and that governments now think it's a good idea to put male sex offenders in women's prisons and men who self-identify as women in women's hospital wards.

Maybe we should have a dedicated thread where examples and/or screenshots of all the horrific anti-trans hate can be posted?

After all, there is so much of it and yet examples can never be produced...

it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

Just picking up on this from the OP. How do you feel about situations like this when everyone is told to state their pronouns?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3719796-how-to-ignore-pronoun-introductions-in-meeting

If it's none of our business what pronouns someone uses, isn't making people state their pronouns an invasion of privacy?

Wow - that is your response? Did you read that screenshot? Jesus. You are more concerned about:

(a) words exchanged between consenting adults on a forum they can leave at any time, than

(b) women being raped and having to take the morning after pill in a prison they cannot leave

I used mumsnet on and off when my children were small. Then, saw the odd post about trans stuff and decided to take a look at the feminist chat thread. Never had done before, but wondered what the “transphobia” was about.

Bit shocked at first as I didn’t have a clue about the GRA and proposed changes. Started to read up on issues, joined Twitter saw the hatred directed towards anyone who didn’t believe TWAW - literally. Saw the extended definition of trans. Not the gender dysphoric transexual that I had always supported, but any male who said he felt like a woman. I realised the implications and found it terrifying. There is a MASSIVE increase in trans identifying males in prison for example - that’s HO stats. There is a MASSIVE increase in children identifying as trans - again stats from GIDS confirm this. It is NOT exaggeration. And a THIRD of the girls who trans are autistic. That is REALLY concerning.

You tell us we should get to know trans people. Well I have in my life, and I’ve no issue with a dysphoric adult transitioning. I have respected pronouns, and treated trans people the same way as I treat any person. Maybe YOU should get to know a few autistic girls, see how they think, see how hard it is for them to cope with the changes of puberty and then see celebration when they decide they’re a boy because maybe then they will “fit in”, and get better.

Yes, at the moment, most of us can change in a changing room without the presence of a trans woman next to us, but the rate at which this cultural shift is progressing means that there will be more and more cases of cameras in unisex loos, assaults on women in prisons, trans women winning in women’s sports events. And just women feeling uncomfortable, unsafe and vulnerable in their previously women only spaces. As it is people are losing jobs for merely stating biological reality.

I think if, OP you think that any of our concerns to be “empty of any basis in reality”, you simply aren’t very well-informed. Or else you are and you are being disingenuous.