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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hilary and Chelsea Clinton discuss trans issues

89 replies

zanahoria · 14/10/2019 07:20

"The one thing she and her mother don’t appear to agree on entirely is the question of transgender self-identification. Their book features Danica Roem, the first trans woman elected to a US state legislature, and when I ask if someone with a beard and a penis can ever be a woman, Chelsea peers at me as if I’ve just asked if the sun rises in the east. “Ye-esss. Yes.” Hillary is looking uneasy. “

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hillary-clinton-chelsea-interview-8j33c8vt5?&wgu=270525_54264_15710328024183_776
741b996&wgexpiry=1578808802

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pallisers · 16/10/2019 02:01

Sorry but anyone who thinks Warren and Trump are cut from the same cloth - can't take your logic seriously at all.

Hispanics who are very catholic are way more likely to vote republican - more because of the abortion issue than the same sex marriage one (it is easier - abortions are hidden but being gay isn't). I think democrats should give up on those votes and instead target getting out the vote in other demographics. I wish Stacy Abrams was running the party strategy.

Goosefoot · 16/10/2019 00:23

yeah that would have been more measured. But nothing she said will affect her likely vote in a presidential race one whit. Nobody who believes strongly in the "traditional marriage" thing is likely to vote for Elizabeth Warren or indeed any Democrat.

I'm not so sure about that. There are a fair number of Catholics, some very left, particularly Hispanics, who might tend to vote Democrat but can be pushed the other way by one thing or another. It's one thing to know that someone disagrees with your religious vie, you can still respect them, but another when they mock it and don't really even seem to know what its about. A surprising number of Hispanic Americans voted for Trump.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 15/10/2019 23:28

Oh come on, even I was yelling ‘rubbish!’ at the radio when she started spouting nonsense ’facts’ about her book- and I just enjoy history as a hobby! I laughed my socks off when the presenter picked it all apart.

I felt a bit sorry for her then but I know better now.

BarbaraStrozzi · 15/10/2019 23:25

Ah yes Naomi Wolf. Who didn't bother to check that "death recorded" in fact meant "death sentence commuted to imprisonment" before publishing her book. Then when a real historian corrected her mistake, doubled down on it.

And (as LordFekko says) thinks Titania McGrath is real (that was comedy gold).

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 15/10/2019 23:09

Oh come on now, hardly a credible witness. Xi thought that Titiana McGrath was a real account.

Dingbat 🙄 and can’t fact check for toffee.

SunsetBeetch · 15/10/2019 22:39

Ah Naomi Wolf. It's like she's addicted to ridicule.

twitter.com/naomirwolf/status/1184146278697054210?s=19

"Shameful echoing of UK right-wing-pushed anti-trans sentiment, by Hillary Clinton. If feminists don't speak out against this hateful treatment of trans women/trans people, feminism does not deserve its name. t.co/mUBodXM6ou "

nauticant · 15/10/2019 08:37

Surely the problem of the elites in modern politics is when politicians who are part of one elite pretend in some way that they're not while railing at the "bad" elite. Although it's just yet another game in politics, it is a nakedly cynical tactic that undermines further the public's faith in politics and opens the door for the manipulative populists.

Charliethefeminist · 15/10/2019 02:30

Gender ideology will see Trump elected again.

StopThePlanet · 15/10/2019 02:21

I never said Warren isn't both highly educated and elite. I just don't think those are necessarily bad things.

I didn't say they were bad things either, I was making factual statements. Now, here's the kicker - in an environment where the detached elite rule the most vulnerable suffer the most (regardless of education).

Yes Warren is intelligent, yes she is highly educated, and yes incredibly elite but what she isn't is what worries me. Her capitulation to the TRAs would almost be shocking if it wasn't omnipresent in the current list of Dem candidates.

Trump can't deny that he knows what a woman is, he spends to much time singling them out and insulting them to feign confusion. He will forever be the 'grab 'em by the pussy' president.

Trump and Warren are closer to being cut from the same cloth than you think. Both appropriate experiences not belonging to them, both put male feelings/prosperity above female reality, both are wealthier than 95% of the American populace, and both are insulated from and ignorant to the struggles of the typical American. Neither of them demonstrate integrity.

None of our Dem candidates are a good pick, and Trump is a nightmare (Pence is the scariest of all in recent memory).

pallisers · 14/10/2019 23:53

So what do you want Stopthe Planet? A coal miner with a grade school education to become president? Thanks to the republican supreme court and its "corporations are people too folks" ruling that will never happen - you need serious money to run.

I never said Warren isn't both highly educated and elite. I just don't think those are necessarily bad things. It is a lot better than ignorant and elite which is what we have right now.

StewedPrune · 14/10/2019 23:16

How can she not have noticed the different treatment of her mother and father? Is she perhaps in denial?

This 100x

StopThePlanet · 14/10/2019 23:14

It is extraordinary that the words "highly educated" and "incredibly elite" are now regarded as insults in the american political arena.

Highly educated was not meant as an insult it is a fact. I am highly educated for an American and I certainly wouldn't be insulted if someone stated that fact about me. It's just a fact no emotion no inflection no inference necessary it's just factual information.

"In 1996 she became the highest-paid professor at Harvard University who was not a dean, with a $181,300 salary and total compensation of $291,876."

That's incredibly elite.

"Warren was a highly influential law professor. She published in many fields, but her expertise was in bankruptcy and commercial law. From 2005 to 2009 Warren was among the three most-cited scholars in that field."

That's awesomely elite.

Net worth: $12MM

That's beyond the common American's understanding of elite. Her net worth is 4x the bottom rung of the top 5%'s net worth.

What isn't elite about her?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/10/2019 23:02

@BrendaLast nah he’s not that bright! And he would have come up with another nickname for her or maybe he couldn’t think of a zippy one.

merrymouse · 14/10/2019 22:59

I find Chelsea Clinton baffling.

How can she not have noticed the different treatment of her mother and father? Is she perhaps in denial?

Does she have so much wealth, privilege and childcare that she has insulated herself from all the practical consequences of being born female? Maybe for her it is just about wearing heels?

BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 22:52

@BrendaLastbut I don’t think he knew that?

I guess like anyone else he used the evidence of what he saw before him and her biographical details which are on public record.

Trump's loathsome but on this one, I'll cut him some slack. Her behaviour is indefensible.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/10/2019 22:39

@BrendaLast but I don’t think he knew that? He was being racist when he thought there was some truth to it. Just because she was telling porkies doesn’t make it not racist.

pallisers · 14/10/2019 22:37

Warren was told by her parents that she was part native american. A lot of american families have similar family beliefs. I don't care where AOC grew up nor do I care what heritage Warren thought she had - every politician spins a story to some extent (trump as successful businessman, Biden as general nice guy etc). I do care about their policies.

It is extraordinary that the words "highly educated" and "incredibly elite" are now regarded as insults in the american political arena.

StopThePlanet · 14/10/2019 22:34

Where did she get the idea from that she was part Native American?

At one point she claimed that her mother was NA and that her parents eloped as her father's family didn't approve. She has revised the narrative to now be that she was told stories by her mother and her grandmother about her native ancestry. She has apologized over and over again for misrepresenting her heritage to the Cherokee Nations et al she can't bring herself to just admit that she lied and that she's been lying about her ancestry since she started college.

There was and still is this affinity for the assumptions about NA cultures and many people lay claim to those ancestral lines. But most of them heard a story about a story from a parent or grandparent and it's really the desire to feel native to this country beyond citizenship IMO. I've met so many people that claim to be NA but clearly are not. Just because you have a fraction of some shared ancestry does not make you NA; it makes you like most Americans - a big mix.

She contributed recipes to a book called Pow Wow Chow wherein she gave recipes that she had lifted from newspapers and cookbooks which weren't even remotely similar to the diverse NA cuisines. I doubt she has any idea what happens at a Pow Wow and I doubt even more that she's ever been to one.

BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 22:27

I think his remarks would have been racist if she were an indigenous woman. It was clearly Warren he was mocking and she deserved it.

I don't know why she made up the story about being indigenous. She was pretty much forced to have a DNA test which showed she has the same teeny, tiny amount of indigenous DNA which millions of Americans have, despite having no connection at all with indigenous cultures. It was the equivalent of saying we all are descendants of Eve from the African continent.

In the oppression Olympics indigenous peoples win (or do I mean lose?) hands down over all other minorities and indigenous women are at the bottom of the pile.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/10/2019 22:07

Where did she get the idea from that she was part Native American? Was it lies?

Trumps gibes we’re still racist though.

BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 21:28

Warren has been appropriating indigenous culture for decades and has benefited as has Harvard and other institutions by way of federal diversity grants. She is as white and privileged as white and privileged can be - and a lying appropriator to boot. She is not equipped to lead but honestly none of our Dem candidates are. She is disingenuous and a wolf in sheep's clothing, she is highly educated and incredibly elite she knows what she's doing

Warren is a disgrace. The only thing wrong with Trump calling her Pocahontas is that Pocahontas was a real indigenous woman; Tiger Lily from Peter Pan would have been nearer the mark.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 14/10/2019 20:47

I must say I'm impressed by Hillary Clinton's more measured response.

zanahoria · 14/10/2019 20:41

" Hillary’s clearly on our page"

it surprised me as the democrats have swallowed the kool aid on this one.

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StopThePlanet · 14/10/2019 20:23

Chelsea doesn't have a clue - you realize her estimated net worth is $15MM, right? She has no fucking idea what it is to be a normal American or a middle-class American or or a low income American or frankly any American that isn't a former president's and secretary of state's daughter. A total of 67 daughters were born to first ladies and US presidents. Put that in perspective, Chelsea is part of a group of 67 people total to date for the U.S. I don't think Chelsea is a liar or a bad person I just think she's very comfortable in her insulation and ignorance.

Warren has been appropriating indigenous culture for decades and has benefited as has Harvard and other institutions by way of federal diversity grants. She is as white and privileged as white and privileged can be - and a lying appropriator to boot. She is not equipped to lead but honestly none of our Dem candidates are. She is disingenuous and a wolf in sheep's clothing, she is highly educated and incredibly elite she knows what she's doing.

AOC is a fucking joke, she couldn't math her way out of a paper bag and she supposedly studied economics. She is a lying appropriator as well... she did not grow up in the Bronx or Brooklyn or Harlem for that matter she grew up in a sleepy safe suburban area. Her mother may have scrubbed toilets after her dad passed 11yrs ago to make ends meet but her dad was CEO of his own architecture firm until his death. People go on and on and on about how she worked two jobs to help her mom pay the bills and how her mom had to "clean toilets" to make ends meet but she was in college at the time she started her first full-time job. Nothing about that story is representative of anyone living in socioeconomically depressed burros in our major cities or socioeconomically depressed rural areas. She knows some struggle and has likely faced racism due to her parents PR roots but she is far far far far removed from any inner-city or rural person growing up in an economically depressed environment. Her claims of being a "Bronx girl" are as truthful as her TWAW mantra.

I'm an atheist and I'm not conservative - I like facts and actual math and pragmatism in relation to binary sex, social policies, governmental oversight, etc. I'm so sick of all these political personalities pushing the TWAW mantra and ignoring real vulnerability (like the fact that 1 of 30 children in the U.S. are homeless). Yeah yeah we hear you keep campaigning to have dicks in other woman's spaces (because your class shields you from it) reserved for vulnerable girls and let's be all porn positive and tell girls they aren't allowed to have boundaries or ask questions and that they don't have any right to physical or emotional privacy and that they have to put themselves second to men of any stature of any presentation as long as they appropriate the word female.

Great just great.

Women (and men) that claim to support women but believe/preach TWAW are telling the rest of us to bend over spread our cheeks and take all the dicks while they live in their insulated ivory towers free from any dick they don't want to encounter.

All politicians are a joke as our country is run by lobbyists, ultra wealthy individuals, corporations, and military conquests. Most politicians don't author their own bills and often aren't aware of the contents. We spend way too much on foreign aid for political gain and not for the right reasons - we put millions upon millions of dollars into the hands of drug lords, fascists, et al while the people of those countries suffer so severely that they flee seeking refuge.

FWRLurker · 14/10/2019 20:19

Well I have to say I am completely thrilled to hear Hillary C come out and express the view that concern about these issues is not insane or bigoted. Now she just has to talk to her long time friend and ally who’s running for president...

I’ll have to tell my right wing Hillary loathing parents that they agree with her about something haha...

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