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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian Article on the Joys of Being a Single Woman

147 replies

IcedPurple · 13/10/2019 10:23

Had a quick check to see if this article had already been posted but seems not. I guess you could file this under 'tell us something we don't already know' - it's long been known that well-being stagnates or declines for women on marriage, while the opposite is true for men - but still good to see it being talked about. And in The Guardian, of all places!

*For years, the feminist writer Linda Hirshman courted controversy by advising that marriage, unless to an exceptional man, is often a “bad bargain” for women. With every child a woman has, she sees her pay and long-term professional opportunities decline, particularly if she leaves the workforce for a significant period of time.

Furthermore, marriage has historically presented women with two options, neither good: marry a man and sacrifice your autonomy and career goals to become financially dependent on him. Or marry a man and maintain your own career but be prepared to have a “second shift” career taking care of him and the home. Even among more open-minded millennial men, the female spouse still ends up doing the majority of caregiving and housekeeping.

More women, however, are foregoing marriage and motherhood. In doing so, they trade in their “second shift” and instead begin taking care of themselves. To use Hirshman’s language, they are rejecting a “bad bargain”. This new status quo frustrates men who feel entitled to female companionship, such as angry male “incels".*

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/13/you-dont-have-to-settle-the-joy-of-living-and-dying-alone

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 16/10/2019 00:36

I am surprised that no one knows people who have ended up with kids unexpectedly. You've never met anyone who ended up the guardian of children because there wasn't really anyone else to do it? It happens to grandparents pretty often but also to aunts and sometimes even friends of the family.

But I'll think "childfree" is ok the same time I think "elderfree" "womanfree" and "Mexicanfree" are ok.

RueCambon · 15/10/2019 21:51

@AutumnRose1 I don't know if I ever actively chose to be single when I was younger. (I do have children, but their father was a disaster, a real horror of a human being). I just never found anybody I could reasonably get together with. I believed all the crap too. I felt ashamed as I approached 30 that I'd spent almost every month of my 20s single and without realising it, I finally settled because I wanted if not to be happy to appear to be happy

RueCambon · 15/10/2019 21:45

Interesting comments. Losing a child painful whether you're single, married, young, old. I doubt the word childfree is contributing to that pain any more or less than the word childless.

If I knew two decades ago what I know now, I would have pushed through my fertile years and just waited for the urges to go. I would have structured my life like somebody who valued her free time, and just generally valued myself better, got a degree, got braces, bought a place on my own, had more goals, hobbies, been braver with art, writing, acting, travelling, socialising. Because I think there's a window where not having a child could be very painful (if you'd wanted one) 39 -43 but I imagine (and I admit I cannot know this) it passes if your life is full and you have a good mindset.
I used to think that having a child was necessary to be fulfilled but now although I love my kids, I understand it's just one (exhausting) kind of meaning in your life.

Interesting and depressing that more women are going back to taking their husband's name !!

IcedPurple · 15/10/2019 21:32

Usually I find the "you'll end up with them" types think you'll date someone with children, which I never did.

yeah if you don't want to have your own kids, why would you want someone else's, and all the baggage that comes with them? I would never enter a serious relationship with a man who had young children.

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IcedPurple · 15/10/2019 21:30

Quit friend of mine had several miscarriages but still refers to childfree people as childfree. She's big on feminism and choices though, and how this stuff gets presented to girls.

I don't really understand how just because someone wants children but couldn't have them means they cannot appreciate that other people are happily childfree. It's not as though your choices impact on them, is it? Whether or not you choose to have children makes zero difference to their ability to have children.

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Quitedrab · 15/10/2019 21:30

Nah. It was just an opinion. I'm not invested in your behaviour at all

AutumnRose1 · 15/10/2019 21:30

It all goes back to some people refusing to accept that "single and childfree" is something women positively choose.

RueCambon · 15/10/2019 21:29

This resonates so much. It's only fairly recently that I've shed the patriarchal mindset and begun to truly believe that I'm better off single. I made all of those mistakes, I was financially dependent on a selfish entitled man who couldn't take responsibility and I ended up out of the workforce, and then leaving him. It's only now that they're teens and I enjoy a secure job that I'm beginning to see my future with the optimism of somebody who feels MORE fortunate for being single. It is getting to that point in mylife (late forties) where I keep hearing about men leaving first wives and dating 32 year olds and so forth. Even the married women who have their own job, at this point their status and identity is enmeshed with being one half of a couple and their social life revolves around other couples.... I"m just so grateful now that that's not where I'm at and that the last decade (or so) I've been consciously and unconsciously becoming braver. Which I think is the key now. Anything I want to do I will do it.

AutumnRose1 · 15/10/2019 21:28

"Yeah, how does someone in a society with free, legal abortion and contraception just "end up with children anyway"? I too am trying to work out the logistics of that one"

When I was dating, I had nightmares about finding out I was pregnant too late to abort. I'd have ended up dead then as well.

Usually I find the "you'll end up with them" types think you'll date someone with children, which I never did.

AutumnRose1 · 15/10/2019 21:26

Quit friend of mine had several miscarriages but still refers to childfree people as childfree. She's big on feminism and choices though, and how this stuff gets presented to girls.

I lost two friends in their 20s, I'm still friends with their parents and they are fine with the term childfree.

I suppose some might prefer childless by choice but that still implies a lack of something essential?

IcedPurple · 15/10/2019 21:25

What am I blackmailing you to do?

To say 'Oh yes you are right. We women who choose not to have children shouldn't refer to ourselves as childfree because at some unspecified point in the future we might run into a hypothetical person who lost a child. How awful of us to use which a 'mean' phrase!"

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Quitedrab · 15/10/2019 21:23

This is a poor attempt at emotional blackmail.

What am I blackmailing you to do?

IcedPurple · 15/10/2019 21:23

If I wake up and find some have materialised in the flat overnight, I might die of shock before I get to call the police!

Yeah, how does someone in a society with free, legal abortion and contraception just "end up with children anyway"? I too am trying to work out the logistics of that one.

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MadamBatty · 15/10/2019 21:23

@AutumnRose1. That’s exactly what I was thinking. I’d better check those locks. It’s a terrifying thought

IcedPurple · 15/10/2019 21:22

If you'd had a child who'd died, hearing the term childfree would be so painful. I imagine. It sounds so mean.

This is a poor attempt at emotional blackmail. Try harder next time.

But yeah, it's a clear message to keep your children away.

Result!

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AutumnRose1 · 15/10/2019 21:21

Still pondering Goose saying "you might end up with children anyway".

If I wake up and find some have materialised in the flat overnight, I might die of shock before I get to call the police! A worrying thought...

Quitedrab · 15/10/2019 21:20

If you'd had a child who'd died, hearing the term childfree would be so painful. I imagine. It sounds so mean. But yeah, it's a clear message to keep your children away.

IcedPurple · 15/10/2019 21:19

Conventionally in the US (especially in the Deep South) males' surnames are theirs and inherited much like claim to family dynasties. Whereas females' surnames conventionally are changed when marrying and family dynasties are often handed to the husband's of said women (businesses, farms, etc.).

Well yes, because women are considered the property of a man - first their father and then their husband. This is symbolised by a woman taking her husband's name on marriage. So it is an inherently sexist custom, no matter how much someone might like their father in law's name.

Call it what you want I liked his and his father's and grandfather's and his great grandfather's surname better than my father's surname. So what? What's your point?

My point is that going by your own logic - whereby the surname you had since birth wasn't really yours but your father's - then your husband's surname wasn't really his but his father's. So you didn't actually take your husband's name. You took your father in law's. By your logic.

And almost no man would ever even consider taking his wife''s name, no matter how much he 'liked' it. That is because abandoning your family name in favour of your spouse's is an inherently sexist practice.

Sweet job of ignoring everything else I wrote to finger-wag me for choosing to take DH's surname.

I'm jnot finger wagging you, just pointing out the inconsistency of your argument.

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StopThePlanet · 15/10/2019 21:07

So by that logic you didn't take your husband's name because that really wasn't his at all. You took your father in law's name.

Conventionally in the US (especially in the Deep South) males' surnames are theirs and inherited much like claim to family dynasties. Whereas females' surnames conventionally are changed when marrying and family dynasties are often handed to the husband's of said women (businesses, farms, etc.). While I have lived many places my roots and my DH's roots are firmly in families where the aforementioned mindset prevails. We were all but shunned for our choices to cohabitate and still hear about how disgraceful and sinful we were (we have been together almost 25yrs). We are also told that "God" didn't give us children because of our sinful choices (hilarious and super bizarre).

Call it what you want I liked his and his father's and grandfather's and his great grandfather's surname better than my father's surname. So what? What's your point?

Sweet job of ignoring everything else I wrote to finger-wag me for choosing to take DH's surname.

IcedPurple · 15/10/2019 20:50

Changing my name was weird on a visceral level but I felt no real connection to it as it was ultimately my father's/etc. name and not really mine at all.

So by that logic you didn't take your husband's name because that really wasn't his at all. You took your father in law's name.

I liked his surname better

You mean you liked his father's surname?

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IcedPurple · 15/10/2019 20:46

I don't really think it does, but I would go with "I have no children".

If that's how you choose to describe yourslef - fine. However, for the reasons I've explained above, I prefer to describe myself as 'childfree' and if that bothers others, well, tough.

While it is the case that some people don't want children, it's also the case that sometimes you end up with them anyway,

Actually, in contemporary Western countries, almost everyone who becomes a mother does so through choice.

Even if it was a relief to have those burdens lifted one day, I'm not going to say I'm elder-free, or dependent-free, or disabled child free.

Once again, you can call yourself whatever the hell you like. No skin off my nose. However, as someone who has made the active choice not to have children, and being grateful every day that I made that choice, I will continue to refer to myself as 'childfree'.

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mindproject · 15/10/2019 20:42

I've been single for 12 years, I have a 13 year old child, I've never been married.

Nothing on earth would make me want to date or live with a man ever again. I am very grateful that I live in a time and a place that I can make that choice. I have lived with 3 men before, all of them took advantage of my kind nature, never again.

StopThePlanet · 15/10/2019 20:36

And I’ve yet to EVER see a man have a pic of himself as a groom as his profile pic.

DH has a B&W wedding photo of us as his profile picture on FB (we got married in 2001 after six years of cohabitating). I strongly dislike FB and am rarely on (maybe 2× a year like Happy New Year or whatever) so my profile picture is of one of our dogs as a puppy. He feels that marrying me was an achievement (he looked forward to being married in his future and hoped to be a father) I on the other hand never dreamed (or was interested) about getting married or having children. We are individuals invested in a romantic and financial partnership. Either of us could walk away from everything today and start over alone easily. I am here because I want to be and the same goes for him.

I took his last name but I don't advertise being married. I don't try to hide it but I certainly don't go by "Mrs DHsurname". Changing my name was weird on a visceral level but I felt no real connection to it as it was ultimately my father's/etc. name and not really mine at all. Plus, my original surname when paired with my first initial sounds like a reference to voiding your body of excrement so no love lost there. I liked his surname better and he liked mine - in no iteration did his name or initials evoke disgust but mine did and as a woman in my profession I prefer to use my initials + surname and prefer to not be associated with shit. Funny but true.

Some friends of ours did something quite cool when they married four years ago (we were a little peeved we didn't come up with it). They spent months doing word play to come up with a unique name for their family - not tied to either of their original surnames. Their last name is unique and holds great meaning for them and their daughter (from a previous relationship) who opted to take the name as well.

I love being alone - I am alone most of my week every week. Being single isn't scary, I don't need a partner. I do enjoy sharing my life with DH but if the enjoyment stopped and could not be recaptured I'd have no problem moving on.

Being single is fantastic for some and painful for others and the same goes for marriage. There is no right answer and one's answer may change over time. Individuals experience marriage and being single differently based on many variables.

Choose happiness (whatever that means for you single/married) the status quo and any judgements can get bent.

AutumnRose1 · 15/10/2019 20:01

X post with Madam Batty

I wouldn't say my elderly mother is dependent

But I will say that although she is a fabulous person and I love her to bits, if she becomes dependent there a fair chance I'll die first from stress

I am also glad I'll never be anyone's burden. Yes, you can find me on the EP board!

AutumnRose1 · 15/10/2019 19:57

The thing about "I have no children" is it often elicits sympathetic faces, which is kind of annoying.

"shouldn't be referred to in a way that implies their existence is a burden, or we only need to take care of them if we choose to."

But I wouldn't need to take care of children unless I chose to?