Men only job

We prioritise recovery from trauma for all our clients so if they don't want to work with or be in a group with someone for whatever reason then of course we listen. To my knowledge no one has said that they don't want to work alongside another client who is trans and I have definitely facilitated groups with trans and cis women together.

All of our staff and volunteers are legally women.

Sums it up Arnold

Pineapple I am not a cisgender woman

I am a woman

So it's only been the last three years or so, is it fair to say you might have met only a handful of transgender women as victims of sexual crimes, and that women are overwhelmingly the demographic of victims of sexual crimes, excluding those where children are the victims?

By the way, hate crime in the UK overwhelmingly targets Muslims and trans gender people are the least likely to be victims of hate crimes, according the the real numbers, not the BBC. In this study, misogyny, essentially hate crimes towards women, were not recorded. I'd personally be very interested to know what the figures would be if every-day misogyny was to be recorded, what the numbers would look like.

If you simply took the number of rapes of women and put them against the number of hate crimes against only transgender women and ignored the crimes against transgendered men, you would see a vast difference between the two, whether you looked at a day, a week, a month or a year.

Is rape a hate crime? Should the women you help, as victims of men, be asked to endure presence of men in places of your work, where they have specifically asked for female-only support? Would the feelings of a transgender woman be prioritised over the request of a woman who has been raped at your place of work?

Why exactly do we have to have been victims of crime to not want to share spaces where we are in a state of undress with men?

I don't strip off in front of my 20 year old son whose penis I've washes a thousand times.

I don't strip off in front of my 47 year old brother who I used to share baths with when we were little.

I don't do so as a matter of privacy and dignity with these men who I'd trust with my life so why on earth should I be expected to do so in front of random men I don't know from Adam?

The fundamental problem is not whether an individual XY trans person is a predator or not, the fundamental issue is that all XY trans people are men, not women and as a woman I should not have to pretend otherwise while half naked.

I have the same immense sympathy for transwomen who have been assaulted as I do for men who have been assaulted, and still think that you need to consider that the presence of either will make some women feel unsafe.

That's before we start to consider where you draw any boundary between 'man' and 'transwoman', as it seems to me an entirely arbitrary division.

In terms of court and prosecution, most people I work with, across all genders, sexualities, ages, etc haven't received a successful prosecution. Most people, if they are able to report to the police, don't make it to court.

So nearly all rape goes unpunished, yet it's fine to only exclude males from women's prisons if they have a conviction for sexual assault? What are the odds that a fairly high proportion of males in prison might have committed sexual assault, yet never been convicted?

why should it be the responsibility of individual transgender people to prove they are not perpetrators?

Since the evidence we have (see previous post) suggests that transwomen commit violent crimes at the same rate as men, shouldn't you also be arguing "why should it be the responsibility of individual men to prove they are not perpetrators?"

Why not push for all rape crisis centres and domestic violence shelters to be completely mixed sex?

I work specifically for a charity that supports women and children who have experienced sexual violence, so every person I support has this in common. We have only started working with transgender women in the last three years so my experience is based on that. Every trans woman I have supported was assaulted by a man apart from one who was assaulted by several people in her family including women.

In terms of court and prosecution, most people I work with, across all genders, sexualities, ages, etc haven't received a successful prosecution. Most people, if they are able to report to the police, don't make it to court. I'm not sure without looking it up what the stats are around police/court process and transgender women but in my experience they are terrified of not being believed and being blamed, just like cisgender women. It can be more complicated of course because people assume transgender women are either mentally ill, perverted or both.

I work for an organisation that only employs women.

Female ones?

Pineapple, do you listen to female users of your services if they do not want to be with male (but feminine-identities) users or employees?

If so, how do you personally ensure that they feel safe, and heard, and not further traumatised? Because 'Honest, love, that's a woman' surely doesn't often cut it?

The rate of crime committed by transwomen was looked at by a study in Sweden in 2011.

The results were:

Transwomen are 6 times more likely to commit a crime and 18 times more likely to commit a violent crime compared to female controls.

But transwomen commit crime, including violent crime, at a similar rate as any other males in the general population.

fairplayforwomen.com/criminality/

This is not a question of just looking at a single example. It is shocking that people who are involved in working with vulnerable women are unaware of this study.

Based on your personal experience alone Pineapple you yourself say hundreds of women and 'many' transgender women (I'll use your language out of respect).

Out of interest, of the transgender women you have met in your work, how many would you say have experienced sexual assault? Of that number how many of the perpetrators in these crimes men? We're there many cases of women sexually assaulting a transgender women for example, or were there many cases from your personal experience of transgender women being the perpetrator and the victim?

In the interest of discussion I'm also interested to know when would you say you started helping transgender women through your work, would you have had cases say, 10 or 20 years ago or more recently than that? And if their assaults went to trial how many were successful in prosecution, do you get told that through your line of work?

There are plenty of trans rights activists out there doing work but why should it be the responsibility of individual transgender people to prove they are not perpetrators? Particularly when they are far more likely to be victims of violent crime than perpetrators.

Of the hundreds of women and girls I have worked with other the years who have experienced sexual abuse, I haven't met a single one who was abused by someone pretending to be transgender. I'm not saying that there aren't cases like this out there, but they are rare. I have however met many transgender women who have been abused. Is it their personal responsibility to prove that they are not sexual predators when they themselves have been raped, assaulted, attacked in the street?

And I’ll add, the only reason I can see that people think that it’s ok to remove segregated spaces is because they believe that women aren’t really at risk.

However, as a woman I’m more likely to be victim of violent crime 🤷🏻‍♀️

So why not leave our spaces alone.

And create new safe spaces for trans women?

You don’t have to remove one at the expense of the other.

Your arguments are completely full of logical fallacies. So because you have read about one person claiming to be transgender who is a threat to women, all transgender people are a threat to women? So because I have read about one mother who abused her child does that mean all mothers are a threat to their children?

The logic, in my mind, is in fact the other way around.

Why put women at greater risk? That’s ultimately what is at stake here.

Self ID and allowing the barriers between segregated spaces disintegrate, you raise the risk to women.

And by women I mean women, not those who are male by sex and like to call themselves women. They’re trans women who require different services and amenities. Because, at a very basic level, their bodies do not function biologically as a biological woman.

To take an analogy: The minority of adults are paedophiles but schools still have safeguarding procedures in place to protect children. Shall we remove this safeguarding procedures because “it’s only a small number of bad individuals”?

That’s effectively what people are saying when it comes to trans women in women’s spaces.

Pineapple you are betr clear and eloquent in your replies but I think you are confusing matters. For me, it really not is not about all men or all men or all mothers or all of any group.

Some men have and will abuse self ID so to get access to women and children. It has happened. It is happening. Anyone who uses self ID because they believe they are the opposite sex should be speaking up and speaking about the dangers, so to disassociate with these dangerous people, and let's face it, women who think they are men, or who say they are men, are not doing this to gain access to women's spaces or children. It is the men, sad but true. Not all men but you cannot dismiss history and facts with platitudes of 'not all men'.

As a group, gay men are not paedophiles and the LGB movement has worked hard for decades to disassociate with that presumption. Some men, gay or otherwise, are paedophiles and within the law we seek to find them and keep them away from children (although increasingly we are failing in doing this.)

Those with genuine 'gender dysphoria' should be shouting loud and working hard to improve the GRC process so to protect themselves as well as others.

Why are people who think they are trans not doing this? Some are, but why not more? Why not all?

Your arguments are completely full of logical fallacies. So because you have read about one person claiming to be transgender who is a threat to women, all transgender people are a threat to women? So because I have read about one mother who abused her child does that mean all mothers are a threat to their children? Comparing Karen White to the majority of transgender women is like comparing all women to Myra Hindeley or all Muslims to Osama Bin Laden. Yes these people exist but they are not representative of the whole.

Voice of Reason the link you provided doesn't support that statement at all.

Self id that should say!

"Transwomen commit sexual offences at the same rate as men and at a much higher rate than women" Where on earth did you get this statistic from? Everything I have read on the subject says the opposite.

Prison numbers
fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/

This would be fascinating if a self is trans women applied...of the correct legal sex as the advert, but identifying as female. But would have to be considered for the job as otherwise they would be suffering discrimination based on their trans status (as correctly compared to a man who didn’t identify as trans)...now that would be a can of worms wouldn’t it!

From The Guardian:

“White entered the UK prison system as transgender. However, despite dressing as a woman, the 52-year-old had not undergone any surgery and was still legally a male. She was also a convicted paedophile and on remand for grievous bodily harm, burglary, multiple rapes and other sexual offences against women.”

They were placed in a woman’s prison, @Pineapplemonkey86 - that is a fact, so I don’t think it takes a massive logical leap to conclude that, according to them, their gender is female. No assumptions necessary.

But they are physically still male, and before they decided they were transgender, they were, as the quote from the Guardian states, a rapist and paedophile. These are also facts.

This person has used self-ID to be placed in the Women’s Estate, alongside vulnerable women, who they went on to assault. Again - facts.

Does that give you enough information to comment, or are you still on the fence about this charming individual?

I agree with @Inebriati - I don’t want people giving away my hard won, sex based protections and rights.

Women are a marginalised group that experience violence, discrimination and prejudice on a daily basis. The opinions expressed in this forum validate this and legitimise what should be condemned.

Women's rights and transgender women's rights are not in direct opposition with each other.

Our understanding sex and gender is, disolving and growing. Some parts of society desperately need to catch up.

You report any hatred to Mumsnet and they'll delete the post.

Women have hard won sex based rights. We have them because we need them, and we don't appreciate other people giving them away and minimizing the risks.

I don't know enough about Karen White to comment on their gender, all I know is they had a history of violent sexual assault against women and were allowed to continue to do so in prison. A tragedy that should not have been allowed to happen and there is much to learn from as many many mistakes were made. I'm not wriggling anything and have spent my entire career standing up for women's rights and supporting victims of sexual violence. What I am saying is you can defend women and be a proactive feminist without being transphobic.

I'm not going to continue this debate as I am well aware I won't change the minds of anyone with such deep rooted hatred against a marginalised group, my commenting was to give voice to a different perspective for anyone else reading as trans ally.

To sum up, in my opinion there needs to be expert assessment, evaluation and appropriate for prisoners who are trans or who say they are trans to ensure they are in the right place.
There will always be a small number of people from any given population that do evil things. You cannot make sweeping generalisations based on these individuals, you have to look at statistics, trends and evidence.
Trans people are a marginalised group that experience violence, discrimination and prejudice on a daily basis. The opinions expressed in this forum validate this and legitimise what should be condemned.
Women's rights and transgender women's rights are not in opposition with each other.
Our understanding sex and gender is, thankfully, evolving and growing. Some parts of society desperately need to catch up.

You haven't answered the question at all, pineapple.

Yes prison reform would be great. Many people are at risk of violence including sexual violence.

You believe Karen White is female. A person with a dick who used that dick to rape a woman. Then sexually assaulted a number of women while locked in with them. This is the behaviour of a man. Not a woman. Women don't have penises. It's not tricky.

Saying oh prison reform, oh women do it too, is all wriggling around.

Be honest. You believe kw is a woman, a woman who committed rape with their penis, and that they should be treated the same as other women. Own it.

Sorry - that link went wrong:

quillette.com/2019/10/12/male-bodied-rapists-are-being-imprisoned-with-women-why-do-so-few-people-care/?fbclid=IwAR37kcfhSeXyJEvnKL25GXNJGJKXWiTUW9xByhp_RTYFvrLq_vaEVGyaNmg