Men only job

Transgender women are not men. They are women.

By what definition are they women? The Equality Act 2010 section 212 says that "'woman' means a female of any age". The Oxford Dictionary uses "adult human female". Both the law and the dictionary agree that being female is necessary to be a woman. A female of any mammalian species is a member of the class within that species that gives birth, releases ova, and lactates. In cases of DSD or other infertility, the question one would ask about a female specimen is "why is this bitch/queen/doe/women not getting pregnant after matings?" The comparable question for a male specimen is "is this dog/tom/buck/man firing blanks?"

No one would ever ask "why is this transwoman not getting pregnant after matings?" We might ask "is this transwoman firing blanks?" So, knowing that transwomen are male and that a woman denotes a human female, in what way are transwomen women?

@Pineapplemonkey86 I'm '@ ing' you so to be sure to ask you a genuine question, not to harass you or to send you any 'hate'.

You stated earlier that it is only women providing the service but you provide that service to women and transgender women (again, using your language to show respect).

My question is, as there appear to be no transgender women counsellors at your practice, the only time a female victim would have a need to refuse the service would be in a group setting where a transgendered women would be present or if a transgender woman counsellor would appear as a new member of staff, have I got that right?

As you've been clear that you think and believe that transgender women are women (and to believe otherwise = bigotry) then can you understand, from your experience with female rape victims that there might be a circumstance where a woman doesn't want to talk to a transgender woman counsellor, and if so why could that be? And if a transgender woman applied for a job with your practice would their biological sex be a reason not to hire them (assuming all experience and skills were met)?

It’s so disgraceful really.

Biological women make up just over half of the worlds population. Biological we are not the same as men - periods, childbirth, more likely to be incontinent, hormones have a massive impact on our bodies.

Yet all of this is discounted.

It’s disgusting.

They aren’t going to do that - third spaces means accepting they are not women, it doesn’t validate their identity - so they don’t want it.

I agree @SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

There are a group of predatory men who are using identify of being a of trans woman as cover to carry on their nefarious activities towards women.

Why don’t the more vocal trans activists advocate spaces which work for them? Instead of taking the ones that work for biological women?

@Iggly - trans women do not want separate facilities especially for them, because that does not validate their belief that they are ‘real’ women. They don’t want third spaces, they want women’s spaces. And the loss of women’s safety, rights and protections is a price they are willing to accept - because it will not be them paying it.

@Pineapplemonkey86 - there is no treatment, medical, surgical or combination of both, that can turn a biological man into a biological woman. It can create a reasonable facsimile of the other sex, but the neo-vagina cannot do the things that a vagina can - and it is cruel to transgender people to suggest that it can. Likewise, a neo-penis will not do what a biological one can - and can involve serious mutilation to create it.

So no, I do not believe or accept that a trans woman is a woman. Biologically, chromosomally, genetically, they are male and always will be. They may pass as female, and I will call them by their chosen name/pronouns, but I will not give away the hard won protections and rights of biological women.

Someone very wise, on here, said that trans men and trans women have every right to a seat at the table. But women have fought long and hard for our one seat, so whilst we may budge up for the trans men and women to have a seat, we are NOT giving up our single seat to them - and that is what the most vociferous trans activists want.

Trans activist campaigner Shon Fay has actually tweeted, “Women - enjoy your erasure!” Because that is the end goal for some. I will not collide with that.

I’m not sure why the rights of one group are seen as effectively trumping the rights of another.

That’s the issue here.

Why not give trans women their own special spaces for changing and dealing with personal bodily functions.

Or make sure that all such spaces suit the needs of everyone.

Instead, the legitimate concerns of one group (biological women) are being overrun by the legitimate concerns of others.

That’s essentially what’s happening here.

That’s a shame pineapple. Noone here hates anyone. I house students for a living. Since self-ID has taken hold we have had to allocate based on gender identity. This means that young biological women of all cultures could be allocated a shared bedroom with a 6ft2 man with a penis who prefers to be called Paris. Or Fae. Or Arielle. The biological female can not now complain or ask to share with a woman, because she will get the response you are giving to other non-compliant women ‘you are a transphobic bigot’. I’m pretty sure your service users share the same fear, knowing your prejudice against biological females, and so wouldn’t dare ask for a male person to not be present during their sessions.
You are not providing a good service for women, pineapple. You are providing a service that prioritises men.

Honestly, if you believe it's just to oppress and exclude one group for the benefit of another, what is different between your views and the views of any government that has ever supported slavery or genocide?

You've just picked a different group to privilege and the group you're putting under the bus, according to your personal political opinions of what's good and what isn't. You can't believe in freedom or equality or human rights if you don't believe in them equally for everyone.

Please stick around, Pineapple. There is no hate involved in the argument over whether a male person is, or is not, to be viewed as a woman.

I am unable to view them as women in the same way that I am unable to view religious beliefs as facts, or adults as children. I don't hate religious people or transgender people or older people for a difference in belief.

Why do you see this disagreement as 'hate'? It's so hyperbolic.

If your definition of 'hatred and prejudice' is simply "I believe trans people have identities and needs that should be met but they don't change sex and biological women still need to be protected as a separate sex class for their needs to be met" then the problem is yours really.

Freedom of belief.

You want it to be a zero sum game where women as a sex class vanish (and pretend this doesn't affect them) and trans people can be validated at all times in all ways regardless of the harm it does to others, because they are intrinsically more important.

I respect you believe that. I don't respect that you are abusing and name calling anyone who doesn't share that belief as a heretic.

I believe in a world where everyone matters, everyone's needs get meet and solutions must be found that work for everyone's needs. Not throwing one group under the bus to benefit another.

If that's 'hatred and prejudice' to you then you're the one with the issues.

FFS.
I have worked with transgender women over the last three years because that's when the charity changed their rules and allowed referrals from transgender people.

I do excellent work supporting women, as do my colleagues. We support women who have experienced one of the most devastating traumas and consistently receive excellent feedback from our clients. We are an excellent charity doing vital and feminist work, the power of this work cannot be underestimated. I have had people say they can't or world rather not work with pregnant women, older women and white women. All of those requests were listened to. Do not patronise the women accessing my service by saying they cannot express their opinion or choice with us.

Transgender women are not men. They are women. They absolutely can and are raped like cis women. Your ignorance is disgusting.

Apparently 'unsubscribing from all emails' doesn't stop me getting alerts for the thread so I'm deleting my account. I'm glad Mumsnet are losing money/sponsors as they clearly don't care about the hatred and prejudice on their forums.

Why is it that only a few go through the doors and that the numbers are not equal to the numbers of women

Well, you'd expect them to make up only 2% of the numbers, surely? Or 1%, assuming half are transmen and half transwomen?

I know Pineapple has gone now so I don't have a chance to respond directly (unless you are lurking still?) but I have to say some of the language used sounded strangely similar to a podcast I was just listening to with India Willoughby...

Anyway, my point was, as people who think they are the opposite sex have always existed, and that they make up less than 2% of the population in the UK, and yet the rate of sex related crime continues to rise (and end in fewer prosecutions) and if trans women are indeed women and not men, then why don't they get raped at the same rate as women, and why are they not experiencing the same need of support in rape crisis centres or places like where Pineapple works? Why is it that only a few go through the doors and that the numbers are not equal to the numbers of women who go there for help? Is it because they are not women and women get raped more than men?

I sincerely encourage people to actually get to know someone who is trans, ask some respectful questions and try to educate yourselves.

Of course I know people who are or consider themselves transgender! Some I've known since they were babies. I like them as much as I ever did. I still know perfectly well which of them are actually male and which female, and would not consider it reasonable to have to share facilities with the male half.

Kesstrel, I thought the I in LGBTQI stood for intersex and therefore assumed it was acceptable to those concerned. Will take that on board.

I could go into biological arguments about people who are intersex,

The preferred and properly respectful term is DSD, disorders of sexual development. It is extremely hurtful to most people with DSD to be considered some kind of "in-between" sex, rather than the sex that they rightfully are, and to know that they and their conditions are being casually talked about this ill-informed way on the Internet, leading to further ignorance and prejudice in people they meet.

I suspect that in 50 years time this will be seen in the same way as opposing interracial couples or decriminalisation of homosexuality.

Plus it would be a mistake to assume that

a) posters here are not homosexual and haven't experienced the kind of discrimination and fight for legal equality you describe

b) posters here do not have friends or family who are transgendered, or indeed are not transgendered themselves.

But if we allow a male who identifies as a women into a female only space, any male can self identify not just transwomen.

Some men would take advantage of that. For awful reasons.

How would you stop that?

I looked after 2 transwomen in a medical capacity, and was friends with a transwoman who, sadly, died prematurely as a result of the hormones she was taking. I have absolutely no problems with people like those 3 that I knew well.
What I have a massive problem with is the men like Karen White and Jessica Yaniv who use self ID as a way to access vulnerable women.
This is such an obvious difference between two groups that I can't understand why there is always someone on these threads that refuses to acknowledge the difference and conflates the two.

I agree it's depressing.

People with DSD are not transgendered and have repeatedly asked not to be used as a tool to level the political hypothesis that sex is not binary. In the massive majority of cases people with DSD belong to one sex or the other, and many of the conditions causing DSD can only occur in one particular sex.

No one is arguing that transgendered people do not exist: they plainly do. However the right of biological females to not be forced to pretend that males can change sex, to their own disadvantage, distress, limitation of their access and freedoms, is not an ethical way of meeting anyone's needs. There are solutions that allow transgendered people to be treated as the sex they would choose to be while still retaining single sex spaces for women who need them. It is not a zero sum game. And women not wanting to lose their equal access to society and their right to not have to pretend something they do not believe in to prioritise a male's feelings over their needs, safety and own feelings, are not 'dinosaurs'. The sexism in this - which is far older than issues around decriminalisation of homosexuality by thousands of years - is hard to miss.

”Your arguments are completely full of logical fallacies. So because you have read about one person claiming to be transgender who is a threat to women, all transgender people are a threat to women? So because I have read about one mother who abused her child does that mean all mothers are a threat to their children?”

@Pineapplemonkey86 - I am not saying that transgender women are a danger to women and children - I am saying that self-ID is a danger to women and children, cause predatory males will use it to get more access to vulnerable women, as KW, and the other accounts in the article I linked to, show.

I am finding it hard to understand why you want to minimise and dismiss the harm that HAS been done to women, by men claiming to be trans women. KW’s victims don’t matter enough for you to change your views. Nor does the indigenous inmate referred to in the Quillette article. Nor the women in the US at risk of losing valuable university scholarships, because mediocre male athletes are identifying as women and winning all the races - races that go towards determining who gets the scholarships. So women’s education suffering as well as women’s sports. How about the women who lost out on the business award given to the person who only puts on woman-face on a part time basis? What about the women in a refuge who have to face a male bodied individual being housed with them because they self-ID as female - and then issue gloating tweets about strutting around scantily dressed, with an obvious erection, making the women uncomfortable - I guess their discomfort, deliberately caused, is not enough for you.

Oh holy Jesus, it is estimated that transgender people make up less than 2% of the entire population, so of course I see less trans women in my practice.

So the last few posts have essentially argued that being trans doesn't really exist. I could go into biological arguments about people who are intersex, etc but I have a feeling it would fall on deaf ears. It's pretty unbelievable that you think your limited experience and knowledge can erase the experience of other people. I'm unfollowing this post because the amount of bigotry and ignorance is getting depressing.

I sincerely encourage people to actually get to know someone who is trans, ask some respectful questions and try to educate yourselves.

Trans people have always existed and always will. As a society we're learning and becoming more tolerant to people regardless of gender but clearly have a long way to go. In 50 years you will be seen the same was as people who opposed interracial couples or decriminalisation of homosexuality. Dinosaurs.

Pineapple

So the people you are helping are able to request that they are not sharing a female only space with a transwomen. If they object to this what would happen?

From what I've read about transwomen wanting access to female only spaces, this isn't being proposed as a choice for women it's being told that that's the option regardless of how you feel.