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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men only job

163 replies

SuperMeerkat · 12/10/2019 14:38

First time post, long time lurker. I spotted a job that was for men only, sexual health clinic support worker. Advert said ‘exempt under gender discrimination laws etc’ What would happen if a woman applied saying she identified as a man? Or if you were non-binary like I think Sam Smith is? I don’t want the job, just wondering really.

OP posts:
Fraggling · 16/10/2019 13:00

So you point is that

Sex is not binary throughout the mamalian and most of the animal and plant kingdom
(how do zookeepers know which animals to put together to breed?)
Intersex exists and is proof that sex is not binary
(even though it's rare)
So no one really knows who is male and who is female
So women's spaces should be open to all
Including perfectly ordinary penis men

I also wonder how the animal kingdom knows how to function. Male and female shrews know that the difference is. Ants. Ducks. Elephants. Also human toddlers. Apparently for adult humans though it's so very mysterious. It isn't though is it. 99.9999 % of people in the world know what male female man woman boy girl mean.

It's silly.

99luftballons99 · 16/10/2019 11:42

@ohholyjesus, so you think the NHS is wrong, the world health organisation is wrong, all people who define themselves as intersex are wrong, charities and organisations that represent intersex people are wrong, I as an intersex person am wrong.... Hmmm that is some special kind of cherry picking there!!! You can have variations if sex is binary, there are many variations and therefore not binary!!! I'm definitely not going to talk to you about my medical history as this isn't exactly a safe space lol but many people do share their stories online if you're feeling nosy.

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 09:18

FWR explains the DSD conditions that a male or female can have. On/off. Yes/no. Male/female. 0/1. Binary.

You can be a man with a DSD condition or a female with a DSD condition.

For someone who says the are 'Intersex' I would hope you would understand that. What did the doctors tell* you 99?*

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 09:10

@99luftballons99 again you are using gender and not gender identity. I no longer use the word gender as it has lost all meaning, sex is binary, DSD exists yes.

Whether they are in this thread or not I don't know but there are a fair fee people on MN who think they are the opposite sex or have children who think they are the opposite sex.

I think Claire Graham is on here and she has DSD, being that it's anonymous it's hard to tell.

Did you have a chromosome test at birth? What DSD condition do you have? I ask as you brought it up.

99luftballons99 · 16/10/2019 08:42

@FWRLurker yeah i know the science thanks but you've literally just explained why sex is not binary lol. If there are variations then it's not binary it's a spectrum!!! Binary literally means systems where it's either 0 or 1. As soon as you can have 0.1 or 0.2 etc then it becomes a spectrum! Your biological sex is made up of more than one thing, medical experts agree on this and there are 5 factors present at birth that determine biological sex, it's not just your chromosomes but your hormones and all your secondary sex characteristics. If sex were biologically binary, intersex people wouldn't exist yet we are as common as red heads lol. Doctors told my mum at birth they didn't know what sex I was, of they couldn't work it out based on everything they knew then surely it's not that simple lol!!

@ohholyjesus I'm brining it up because firstly as far as I know no one else here is intersex or transgender so it felt like there needed to be at least a little representation lol. But also if we can accept biology isn't binary or at least isn't straightforward then that means it's easier to accept gender isn't binary or straightforward! If we can accept that peoples differences are natural and to be expected then maybe we can stop seeing everyone 'outside the norm' as being threats! The post went really quickly from people asking about an employment issue to people talking about rapists, sex offenders, liars and manipulators, etc. That's what happens when we don't understand people, we assume they are out to get us! I'm just trying to bring some perspective from a different angle!

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 07:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OhHolyJesus · 16/10/2019 07:48

@99luftballons99 we do indeed agree that surgery on children who have DSD (or have gender dysphoria) should not be performed.

Thank you for writing all that out and I have read similar explanations elsewhere from Claire Graham.

mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/07/23/is-there-such-a-thing-as-intersex-genitalia/

I take issue with intersex as it has been added to the LGBT and as T is entirely different from the LGB, the I differs further. I assume we can agree that Intersex/DSD is not an identity or a sexuality and it is an extremely rare medical condition. To clarify, I feel sorry for anyone who is born with Down's syndrome, a cancerous testitical (and ex boyfriend), a cleft palate or frankly anything that they grow up with and causes them physical or emotional difficulty. I don't pity you, I just hope you have a full and happy life which is completely possible. To express sympathy shouldn't be insulting, it was not meant as a condescending comment.

We also agree that gender is sex-based stereotypes created in society. As mammals we have either male or female and DSD is extremely rare but nevertheless we should all try to educate ourselves about it and be supportive and understanding.

To return to the OP post again, a man with DSD could apply for the job but a woman should not.

(A man with gender dysphoria could but a woman who thinks she is a man should not.)

FWRLurker · 16/10/2019 04:51

99luft

I’m afraid you’re mistaken. Biological sex is indeed binary in mammals. If you are of the sex which (assuming nothing goes wrong developmentally) would produce ova and could gestate young, you are female. If you are the sex which (again assuming all development were normal) would produce sperm and can ejaculate semen, you are male.

You are perhaps thinking of secondary characteristics typical of each sex which indeed are bimodally distributed.

But a tall woman is no less female than a short one. A man with a micropenis is precisely as male as a man with a magnum. And none of this has to do with personality - it’s entirely unrelated, except to the extent that having been recognized as male or female, we are then socialized into particular sex role stereotypes (“genders”).

Now, what about the various intersex conditions you asked? Well they each are specific and different and have well known and understood mechanisms of biological action.

First to get chromosomes out of the way, it is very simple. If someone has an active SRY gene (the Y linked “male trigger” gene) and one X chromosome, that person will be a standard run of the mill male. If someone has two X chromosomes and no active SRY gene, they will be a standard female.

If someone is XO or XY with an inactive SRY gene they will be a sterile female, these conditions are known as Turner and Swyer syndrome respectively. Such individuals are observed to be female from birth but are infertile (cannot produce ova). Certain other attributes and health issues go along with each condition.

or XXY or XX with a SRY translocation to another chromosome, that individual will have Klinefelter syndrome and will he observed to be male. Klinefelter men can have trouble with fertility but some are still fertile.

Then we have CAIS which is somewhat similar to Swyer. These XY individuals cannot use androgens so like Swyer women will be sterile and appear female from birth. They are XY so if nothing had gone wrong further down (with their androgen receptors), they would have developed male. Instead they have female anatomy and will be observed to be female.

Then there are a variety of disorders that can affect males leading to differences in genitalia. Sometimes in older days their genitals were mistaken for female genitals and horrific surgeries were attempted to “correct” things. Now it is standard in developed nations to do more sophisticated tests throughout early development to ascertain the child’s biological sex if that is in question. Meanwhile the child’s anatomy should be left alone, and there’s no need to “raise” an infant in a particularly masculine or feminine way based on their sex in any case. I assume we agree on that at least!

Hormonal Disorders like PCOS only effect females and absolutely can lead to a lot of very specific fertility and pain issues in the women who have them (in addition to some superficially masculinized traits like facial hair) so it’s a bit rude to insist that all so called “intersex” conditions are completely healthy (or at least it’s wrong to deny others experiences in this regard).

Also, there’s nothing wrong with someone who is born with a disorder or disability, but that does not mean it is not a disorder! If I am born blind or deaf due to a mutation in a gene, that describes a genetic disorder. It’s not an insult.

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 22:37

@OhHolyJesus biological sex isn't binary. I don't know what reading you've done but the NHS literally tell you this
www.gp.brightonandhoveccg.nhs.uk/new-thinking-about-gender
I could link to so many more articles but there are just a couple
www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/opinion/sex-biology-binary.amp.html
www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

I also don't need you to feel sorry for me. I feel sorry for you to think the way you do.

I have no idea what problem you have with the word intersex?! Considering that's what I and most other intersex people want to be called!!

OhHolyJesus · 15/10/2019 22:19

@99luftballons99 Pineapple was clear that TWAW, it's ok to challenge that, particularly in the context of this thread which refers to KW and the dangers of self ID in in that she referred to her job a fair bit in her posts.

The intersex thing - sorry I'm just not going to use that word - people who have been born with a disorder of sexual development, their sex organs did not develop in the usual, normal biological way, if someone is missing a womb or their penis is small and appears to be a clitoris...I feel sorry for them. I feel sad and sorry that they have had this terrible misfortune and I wish them all the best...however their chromosome are either one thing or another. They are either male or female. You can have extra chromosomes or missing chromosomes but biology is binary.

I say this as someone who isn't a geneticist, an endocrinologist or even as a medical doctor. I have no experience whatsoever in this area, but I have done some reading on the subject, probably not as much as you, but I know enough to understand this.

If Alex Drummond comes into the ladies loos with his beard and his earrings and his penis (tucked, but it's there) I would scream.

If a taller than average woman comes in I wouldn't. She might not have a womb, she might have a micro penis, but I would be able to tell whether I was under threat, probably without even turning around. I don't think I would be unusual in that.

Returning to the OP for a moment, there are some very rational, obvious reasons why a man should get a job supporting other men and why that role should not go to a woman.

I don't care if that man is gay, has never been in a relationship, has ginger hair, a micro penis or a sixth finger on his left hand, as long as he has skills and experience, it's all fine. They ask for men to apply, so woman do not waste their time as a woman is not required.

Maybe we should start having lie detector tests at interviews and chromosome testing to be sure?

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 21:59

@SDTG then you're a pervert and should be treated as any other man who harasses women. I've never heard of that before, just googled it and it seems like a rare thing. In all my life I've never seen anyone like that in toilets or anything. I know someone earlier used someone as an example, I can't remember their name Jonathan/Jessica something but again it seems such an unusual thing and you can find individual examples of anything to prove a point. I read an article today about someone adopting a six year old who was actual a 22 year old dwarf who tried to kill their whole family!! Can't use that as an example to talk about all people who are dwarfs can you!

@OhHolyJesus it's really not about undescended testes, intersex people can have all forms of male or female genetalia. Someone could have a penis but be female.

Look all my life people have called me a freak and a pervert. Someone beat me up on a date because I told him about my story and he said I was "trying to trick him into sex with a tranny". People assume I'm trans and by some peoples ( but not mine)definition I am. People assuming that we're dangerous because we're different. Assuming that all people that self ID are trying to abuse women means

There was someone on this thread with actual experience working with women who have been raped and you all were pretty horrible to her to the point she has left Mumsnet lol. I don't think you're interested in my experience or hers but just want to find reasons to back up what you already think.

OhHolyJesus · 15/10/2019 21:18

99 please do not conflate self ID with people who have gender dysphoria and with people who have disorders of sexual development.

Even the people in the video you provided up thread didn't do this.

No one is going to rape me with their undescended testes.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 15/10/2019 21:12

What if you are genetically and biologically male, and are an autogynephile who gets their sexual kicks out of making women feel uncomfortable by intruding into their single sex spaces while dressed as a woman - and you are gleeful at the thought of self-ID because you will be able to shriek transphobia if any of those hateful women object to you using them and their sex segregated spaces to get your rocks off? Or you are simply a male bodied predator who will use self-ID to get access to women and girls who are in a vulnerable state?

I am willing to bet that there are more predatory and/or autogynephiliac males than people who are genetically female but male bodied.

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 19:50

A lot of people in here are saying if you have as penis you are a man and no matter if you identify as a woman you'll never be accepted into female spaces. What happens if you have female chromosomes but male genetalia?? Or male chromosomes and a vagina?? Or if you're chromosomes are XO or XXX or XXY? What if your biology is so complex doctors can't say if you're male or female?? Who would you choose to include/exclude then??

OhHolyJesus · 15/10/2019 19:27

Your genitals do not define your character, personality or gender identity

They do not define your gender identity.

Gender no longer means Male/female.

Your chromosomes decide your genitals in the womb.

Your character and personality are defined by a number of things including parental traits and your childhood experiences. Your personality is not connected to your genitals.

No one here is reducing anyone to their genitals.

As an intersex person (using your language as a sign of respect) you would know that and if you read the thread you would see that we are not talking about genitals, we are talking about men. Men have genitals and some men use them to rape.

CarWreck · 15/10/2019 19:08

Male predators do not need to identify as women to have access to women.

Yes the example of Karen White is horrendous and should not have been allowed to happen

Is this a joke? Karen White literally had access to women in a women's prison because Karen White identified as a woman. How on earth else would a male prisoner be able to live in a women's prison?

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 19:03

Also @FWRLurker do you mean intersex women who identify as women or those where the doctor or parents decided thats what they should be as infants??

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 19:01

Most intersex people are born healthy! Believe me @FWRLurker you've got it the wrong way round!! Most people in the intersex community are totally fine with the term but hate the dsd lable!! oiiuk.org/category/library/the-basics/

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 18:58

Also @bd67th, what are you on about?!?! How about women who are raped bit can not have children??? Because of their age, that they are on birth control, that the rapist used a condom, they were anally raped, they are infertyle, etc etc etc?!?!

FWRLurker · 15/10/2019 18:52

It’s fine for you to include the concept of intersex as part of your personal identity, 99luft

However it is insulting to the vast majority of women and men who have disorders of sexual development to imply their medical conditions make them “less male/female” or somehow “between sexes”.

Intersex women are women.

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 18:39

I know and other intersex people know more than anyone that your genitals do not define your character, your personality or your gender!!

99luftballons99 · 15/10/2019 18:20

Intersex individual here! I do not have a 'disorder'!! DSD is not a better term than intersex!!! www.intersexinitiative.org/articles/dsdfaq.html

Also very sad to see you go @pineapplemonkey86 as it was really heartwarming to see someone give an alternative perspective. Sorry your work with women was attacked!! I'd like to PM you if that's ok x

bd67th · 15/10/2019 17:02

The difference between a man and a transwoman, allegorised.

(Image sources: media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/1192cbCOMIC-open-carry-patriots.jpg and www.thetrace.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/open-carry-color-2-1200x0-c-default.jpg)

For the hard-of-thinking, penis = rifle.

Men only job
Men only job
LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 15/10/2019 16:30

@Pineapplemonkey86 please don't use the term 'cis' it is offensive.

bd67th · 15/10/2019 16:28

Rereading, this jumped out at me: They absolutely can and are raped like cis women.

But will never need to abort their rapist's baby, unlike "cis" women.

There are reasons why we legally define rape as needing a penis to commit, and classify it separately in law from other sexual offences: the pregnancy risk to female victims. There is a reason why women like me would sooner jump under a train than talk to a male rape counselor: the fear of penises and their owners. Even when a man stops short of rape and "only" sexually-assaults a woman, she knows that he could have escalated to rape and possibly made her pregnant and that knowledge will affect her.

Most transwomen have penises, so as far as I'm concerned, they are armed like every other male.