Non binary 12 year old on Today Program

Gutting is putting it mildly. It seems entirely inexplicable to me. How much easier would it be to do away with gender stereotypes than to convince children that bodily mutilation is their path to peace and happiness?

Actually I totally get why "non- binary" seems like a good option when you feel that your other choices are "toxic masculinity " on the one hand, and "hyper-femininity " on the other.

Yup.

It's just gutting that the response in schools etc to this is to e.g. follow mermaids etc rather than work to recognise that gender stereotypes harm everybody and to break those down.

When I was in primary and early secondary I wished I was a boy.
In primary I thought it was so unfair the boys got to take their tops off when it was hot and girls weren't! And that they could wear shorts at school and girls couldn't. At 11/12 I felt it was easier to be a boy, boys could ask girls out, be bolder. Girls couldn't. I noticed how fat boys didn't get the teasing fat girls did.

Do I wish I was a boy now?! Hell no. Kids don't understand at that age, and I'm thankful when I was a child this wasn't a big thing as I'd of probably decided I was male and it would of been so cool and trendy 🙄 It's so hard and confusing for children these days. Children need to know they don't have to follow a gender stereotype in order to belong to that gender.

One of the most important points Stephanie Davis-Arai made, is that identifying as non-binary is now increasingly leading to a medicalised path.

Especially concerning is the issue of mastectomy for young women, so they can achieve what they believe is a 'non-binary' body.

Yes Barbarian, agree. I think that's why so few people I know are binary as it is so unappealing. My issue is the anti-science stuff that is currently wrapped around the rejection of gender stereotypes. He is only 12 - it is his parents and teachers going along with the anti-science bollocks that are the problem.

Actually I totally get why "non- binary" seems like a good option when you feel that your other choices are "toxic masculinity " on the one hand, and "hyper-femininity " on the other.

The discussion at 8.50 was great, Stephanie was so clear. Hopefully the HT was listening and taking note.

I just can't reconcile the 'he's so mature' with the 'he's so staggeringly ill informed he just compared humans to worms'.

The whole worm argument is just so bizarre. It is like saying horses have four legs, therefore so do humans.

In explaining what non-binary means he said that humans are animals and animals don't need to have two distinct sexes. Like worms.

Boy is this kid going to be pissed off when he realises he can't identify into being a worm.

I do wonder about the influence of porn. I had some porn around me as a kid which was arousing but tended to make me think I must be a lesbian as all the porn I saw objectified women. If you just haven't reached the point of regular sexual feelings, or aren't particularly sexually focused except on people you love, if the lads around you are already sharing hellish violent porn I can see anyone withdrawing from the whole idea of being male.

Most people are attracted to a specifically sexed body

Indeed. That's why it is known as Sexuality not genderuality.

I'm attracted to the male sex, not masculinity.

Most people are attracted to a specifically sexed body. The reason I sleep solely with men is because I fancy their bodies - it's not that they ubiquitously have better personalities than women, or make better conversation or can carry heavier loads.

Most of the gay people I know (men & women) say that they are attracted to a specific sexed body.

This is the issue isn't it. If you haven't been infiltrated by queer theory then you will of course say your choice of partner is based on sexual attraction.

If you believe in the gender fairy, then you'll say something rather different regardless of the biological reality.

So on that link, at 1.43 and 2.53

Loads of non-binary people are in gay relationships! Non-binary is the 'gender', not the sexual preference.

Most of the gay people I know (men & women) say that they are attracted to a specific sexed body.

Interestingly, as a side note, I don't know any gay man (with whom I"e discussed this) who would consider a transman as a sexual partner ...

I guess you can say that you don't really fit into any gender stereotypes (but then isnt not fitting into a gender also a gender group?), but you cant say 'i have no bio sex'.

We distinguish between boys and girls, men and women - sometimes for rubbish reasons but sometimes for some very good reasons. Yes, question the rubbish reasons but don't try it on by calling a male a female SEX and demand access to the ladies loos, or pretend that 'were all the same'.

I never doubted I was a girl because from about 9 I was mad on riding and no boys hung out at the stables. I loved learning to control a large, strong yet responsive animal. You feel very powerful. It's exhilarating. It was the only sport I've ever been any good at. When I was older I taught it and led pony treks during my summer holidays. It was fab.

I grew up when men wore eyeliner and had lovely long hair. DH had long hair and men with hair tumbling over their shoulders still give me the fanny gallops.

I also benefited from attending an all girls school where girls could be good at science and gendered expectations were slightly less.

We were split into an upper and lower set. The lower set did Domestic Science. I was in the upper set and we did Latin, which has proved useful in many contexts. Nobody did wood or metalwork.

As MouthHarpy says, it's a load of old (queer) bolleaux.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00094kl

The boy who thinks he's non binary was on about 7.45, Steph was on just before 9

He is a child. He has come across this idea and thinks ‘I don’t fit in with boys, must be a ‘they’ then’*

Yes, @LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD . I keep on thinking that there's a basic contradiction in this non-binary claim, and also transgender claims. Both actually play into a binary notion of sex and gender while trying to reject them.

If, as a man, you don't feel you fit into the gender role of masculinity as constructed at this particular historical moment then the non-binary & trans logic seems to be that therefore, you must be female/feminine.

I mean, HOW much more binary can you be? How much more sucked into a stupid limited notion of what it is to be HUMAN.

He might be gay, which is not a non-binary position.

Loads of non-binary people are in gay relationships! Non-
binary is the 'gender', not the sexual preference.

If theres a catch up link of the segments please can someone link.

Ah it was NR I wasn't sure who it was..thanks Orchid.

I'm still at the head teacher not thinking that pressure groups in schools could be a problem but glad NR at least raised the question.

The TAs live to froth so they will do what they do as ever!

It struck me that he was a very articulate and sensitive boy who was never going to fit in with the standard idea of masculinity. I wonder if he is struggling and the more gendered world of high school

I just thought he is a victim of the mudding of sex and gender. And that a good feminist explanation, emphasising to him that he doesn't have to conform to any gender roles or stereotypes, would help him.

He sounded very bright but confused and very very young. I wondered about a borderline ASD.

He's obviously pre-pubescent. What will happen when the testosterone surges and he discovers himself as a sexual being? and that he might be attracted to other - sexed - humans? He might be gay, which is not a non-binary position.

I mean non-binary is bolleaux but I'm trying to start where he is. Because, it must be so so so difficult for parents and family who love their child, but need to help him adjust to the world and his body.

They need to look at "gender non-forming" not non-binary.