“He makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up” - warning signs you have observed

Have you not heard of the sisters of mercy abuse scandals?!

😲 Have to admit I haven't. And it was Sisters of Mercy that ran the school I went to from four to eighteen. 😲

I must have lived in a very belligerent town because several times parents came barging into our class and giving the nun what for, if their child was smacked. "I'll tear the veil off your baldy oul' head" was the favourite threat.

@Juells off topic but really?!
Have you not heard of the sisters of mercy abuse scandals?!

Juells yes, in Ireland, catholic nuns were VERY handy with their fists, rulers, blackboard dusters, books, really any object that came to hand. I was beaten black and fucking blue with little ir o warning by more than one nun as were countless others. Have u been living under a rock?

In the Gift of Fear de Becker says of forced teaming "the simple defence is to make a clear refusal to accept the concept of partnership: "I did not ask for your help and I do not want it"." We may feel that sounds rude but as de Becker says "if people would view forced teaming as the inappropriate behaviour it is, we might feel less concern about appearing rude in response". It's advice that stuck with me and has helped me on numerous occasions over the years.

Having read through the entire thread, I'm actually left with more questions than answers:

Many of the things mentioned ring perfectly true - but only for SOME people SOME of the time rather than everybody, always.

For example, I've had a total of four bosses in my career history spanning around two decades (counting my school and uni days) who could have been categorised as "inappropriate" in some form or another. Using this just because they're comparable - I've felt the very same about myriad encounters over the course of my life:

Boss #1 I worked for in my teens. Single, looking and used to constantly talk about sex to me. He was in his 30s. I thought he was a massive creep and inappropriately interested in both myself and (eeeek!) my slightly younger sister. But I never felt threatened by him in the slightest.

Boss #2 was flamboyantly gay. He also used to pinch my bum and once had the glorious idea of emptying an ice bucket into my cleavage at a company do. I was in my early to mid twenties, he was around 30. I thought he was a bully and an arse but not a creep then. With the benefit of hindsight, I think he was a misogynistic bully and an arse with a massive Napoleon complex but still not a creep.

Boss #3 was a self-infatuated utter creep with a wife and two kids, who clearly signalled not only to myself but also to any other woman around that he wouldn't mind a bit on the side. Used to run his fingers up my spine. Never felt remotely safe in his presence. I was so freaked out I filed a sexual harrassment case with HR and won. He terrified me. Still makes the hairs at the back of my neck stand up just thinking of him. I was in my early thirties, he was around 40.

Boss #4 is also married with children. Very tactile. Sometimes flirtatious. I reciprocate. Love him to bits and would jump off a cliff for him. Not remotely creepy. Our relationship is one of deep mutual respect and personal affection. Would not dream of taking it further, and neither would he, because we're both halfway decent people. Would also never get myself into a situation where this was an option because, yes, there is some mutual attraction, too.

Long story short: the same thing, coming from different individuals, can trigger very different emotional reactions.

It's quite visceral for me personally. I can't really put a finger on what makes the difference.

Also meant to add about the "teaming" - there's a well known transperson that does that, sending DMs to feminists on Twitter etc to let us know how supportive they are, and one of us. Gave me the instant heebie jeebies and I'm not wrong.

I notice a lot of low level creepy behaviour on public transport. The guy who jiggles his leg repeatedly with his hands in his pocket and then stops when another man sits down. The manspreading or the sitting next to you in a train full of empty seats. I can see the boundary pushing and testing of women's niceness and politeness. I was attacked when I was young so have a heightened radar for this shit, I never switch off. It's exhausting to be like this all the time but to quote the Gavin de Becker book it's a gift.

When I meet someone I instinctively believe to be bad I feel a sinking cold sensation in my body like dread. I almost feel myself cringing from them physically. Luckily it's rare enough.

Eye contact: I know it’s supposed supposed to be a sign of honesty etc but the VERY few kids that freaked me out when teaching were the ones who didn’t follow the animalistic patterns that we all have-keep eye contact but offer mutual deference by breaking that contact in turn. I think we lose our animal patterns and instincts at our peril

The people who describe being forced to hug or kiss by their parents:

Children have a right to boundaries and parents enforcing physical contact, even to kiss granny goodbye, tells children that their boundaries are wrong.

Barracker omg

my brother's wife would always tell their little girls to kiss everyone goodbye.

I wish people wouldn't do this - there aren't many people I want to be kissed by. It's not fair on either side to insist on kissing, either as recipient or kisser. (Plus it's teaching people to ignore boundaries.)

I am interested in the forced teaming - I think it's natural to seek out similarities and things in common when you meet people. If I meet someone who is interested in walking and Formula 1, I am going to focus on the walking, as it's something we have in common. I realise there's a difference between finding common ground to build some sort of relationship and forced teaming, but I think it can be difficult to spot. I could do it with my mother, "oh well, we think X, don't we!" I would reply, "no, we don't think X, I think Y." Or I might have just rolled my eyes sometimes. But if it's someone you don't know as well, it might not always be as easy to spot, or you might not feel as confident about speaking up. And I think with a lot of these things - people could just be socially awkward but otherwise harmless, and they probably don't really present differently from those who are deliberately pushing boundaries, and it's difficult to know when to give people the benefit of the doubt and when to keep well away, particularly when we generally are socialised to be polite.

Shits like him trade on the fact that you don't want to hurt his wife by creating a scene.

That's what the guy who touched my bum on the train relied on.

As a kid, nuns were fairly physical and unpredictable

You must have encountered a weird order. The very last thing I'd say about the nuns who taught me is that they were physical and unpredictable.

The husband of a lovely elderly woman I knew (friends of my PiL) seemed very nice, but I freaked out when I was there one day and he took one of my little girls out into the garden and sat on a bench and put her on his knee. I shot out after them and was jiggling around like I was on hot coals. Never felt comfortable around him after that, and a few years later when I was kissing them goodbye he stuck his tongue in my mouth! His poor sweet wife was standing right beside us smiling innocently. Shits like him trade on the fact that you don't want to hurt his wife by creating a scene.

For those that don’t have the time to read the Gavin De Becker book - this Oprah podcast recaps an interview she did with him and another and where it saved lives:

podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/oprahs-supersoul-conversations/id1264843400?i=1000445769068

I have never felt physically threatened by another adult woman. As a kid, nuns were fairly physical and unpredictable but if a woman went for me, physically, I think I could fend her off. Probably get roughed up it it would seem a fairer fight.
Not the same with a man
I know I could be easily overpowered by the average man if he was determined to do so. And as a woman that knowledge is upper most in our minds

My family used to force me to kiss everyone, on the lips. I absolutely hated it then and The thought of it it makes my skin crawl even now.

My mum in particular used to have a thing about noticing I was uncomfortable with close body contact. Her solution to this was to threaten and guilt trip me if I refused. Even now she throws it back in my face like it’s some sort of personal insult to her. I just didn’t like hugging. No particular reason it just made me uncomfortable. Even now I don’t approach DS for hugs. I give a quick hug before bed that he always hangs around for and I let him approach me for any others. I’d never make him touch anyone he didn’t want to, not even me. I was angry with my mum a few years ago when he went to stay, the one and only time, with them. He was reluctant to hug her and she forced him, then gave me a barrage of abuse over text about not teaching my son physical affection.

Sorry!

....with men there’s an extra dimension of primal fear that I don’t experience with women.

I’ve had creeping unease triggered by both women and men but with men theres

We were never told to kiss adults as children. But my brother's wife would always tell their little girls to kiss everyone goodbye.

Only very recently was mum able to tell me that when she was very little indeed her grandmother would tell her to kiss her friends and friends' husbands goodbye. And one of those men's hands would casually find its way up under her dress into her pants. That's why we were never told to do it, but she could never put it into words why.

Thing is, you have no way of knowing what men's (ok some women too) peculiarities might be.

Or if they're desperately trying to fight an attraction they don't want, and having a child thrust on them by an oblivious mother might trigger a binge.

There was a woman who worked at the charity I used to volunteer for. I always found something about her unnerving. She’d never finish a sentence, talked quite quickly and always sounded nervous. She was one of these very kind christian women who would always want to help, only there was something off about her, not like she was fake but something else. It was almost like she felt compelled to offer help but at the same time you could feel her pulling back. Her words wouldn’t give it away but it was always the feeling I got.

Anyway one day I met her husband. He was a creep. Mr perfect, oh so charitable on the surface but he was somehow detached. You could have a conversation with him and it appeared to be in the moment, but somehow it felt wrong. It wasn’t his tone or what he said but there was just something dismissive about him. Kind of like a verbal glazing over of the eyes. He was quiet, would hardly say a word, just sit there passively but somehow you knew he was taking it all in. He was one of these men who you could just imagine having an explosive temper and going from 0 to 100 in a split second. Outwardly there was nothing to dislike about him, but again, there was just something about him that put the hairs up on the back of my neck.

I often wondered about them, in fact I remember mentioning it to someone at the time. She was unnerving but not in a threatening way, but he was really unsettling, even despite his Mr perfect persona. I remember saying more than once that I thought he was abusive towards her. he was just the type to be insidious and subtly controling, and I just knew there was a temper lurking just below the surface. If you weren’t paying attention to all the tiny signs you’d miss it completely so kind and gentle an image he projected. She always said he was wonderful but it never quite added up to me. There was always an undercurrent in what she was saying. Just occasionally she’d let something slip out that convinced me of it.

They moved away to Ireland I think and I never heard any more about them. I hope she got rid of him, he was truly unpleasant.

I never used to think about all the subtle cues I picked up about people. Some of it was me being young and inexperienced, and being abused myself, but I’ve always got vibes off people.Now I think about it I still can’t put my finger on it. I’m blind, so miss out on body language, but I do get this feeling with people where I can feel their energy.I never really thought about how much notice I’ve taken of it until recently, but I’ve always tried to avoid people who gives me that uncomfortable feeling. I can’t explain it, it’s like the air between me and somebody feels thick. It’s a bit woo I know, but I get it a lot, and not only in a bad way.

I've had a few creepy experiences with men and each time it happened I had picked up on strange signals before really looking directly at them and before anything actually happened. I still couldn't tell you what it was that alerted me. Breathing, movement, whatever it was. I'm grateful for the instincts that give you a heads up in any case.

A simple one is eye movement, I suppose. Fixing your location and then trying to assess who else might be around or watching.

This might sound mad but another I've noticed (esp on quiet public transport or confined space) is the exaggerated pretence of just doing normal stuff as a prelude to some sort of unwanted attention. Sighs, rubbing head, rearranging items in pocket, a performance of normal. Sounds crazy right? I struggle to describe it but it never feels like genuine normal fidgeting....and then something happens.

I have to say that the one person I have been the most uncomfortable around in last few years and from whom I got the sense they were sociopathic/psychotic was actually a woman

I've dealt with quite a few women like that in my time too. They exhibited far worse behaviour towards me than send a Happy Anniversary card.

I was wary of them but I wasn't frightened of them.

It's not the same, not the same at all.

Oh sorry the victim doesn’t say it .
It’s about the victim . But you get the gist.

There’s a quote from the first paragraph of Tgof
where the victim of the attack says
“Kelly told me she felt new confidence in herself, knowing she had acted on that signal, knowing she had saved her own life”
I totally get this. I feel this too, despite the otherwise seemingly endless repercussions of trauma I continue to experience.