Astonishing thread from Jane Fae, Darvo at its finest.

I have had a response from MN, they apparently had “a number of complaints” and it was to do with me comparing my feelings about the person in question, to my similar feelings about another person.

Agree with Arnold creepiness is nothing to do with lack of conventional attractiveness.
I once had strong feelings of fear and revulsion about a man we used to come into contact with, he had a disability, so on the surface would appear non-threatening, yet He really bothered me, and my DH hated him with a visceral passion. However, for reasons involving neighbour, this man was once in my house. I was alone with him and my very small children, trying to drop huge hints that would get him to leave. He was talking, and I felt this wave of fear. He simply could not quite disguise his simmering anger. He also could not keep his eyes off my dds, and kept trying to play with them. I had to get something from another room, when I came back in he had my toddlers entire fist IN HIS MOUTH. I was so shocked, and so afraid of how he might react that I didn’t shout, I just told him that I had stuff to get on with and I was sorry but I would have to ask him to leave.
I very rarely see him about now, but DH saw him recently in the supermarket, and he asked about our daughters. DH stood there and stared him out, without saying anything.

If we can't do so on a site aimed at women then what use is that site?

If the person in question wasn't trans we'd probably be allowed to do so. This indicates something wrong with the way conversations relating to trans people are moderated, not something wrong with the conversation women are having.

Jane Fae frits the shit out of me.

I would avoid a personal encounter with Jane Fae at all costs.

I believe this to be a completely sensible and evolved risk response.

GO ON THEN. DELETE ME.

There have been times when I tried to ignore my inner feelings of fear or revulsion about someone, and it led to me being in some terrible situations.
We should be able to talk about fear, why we feel it, when we feel it, what it tells us.

mean meanies being mean because we don't find someone aesthetically pleasing

I have a suspicion there's a misogynistic reversal in there. Just cos men are freaked out by women they judge as unattractive, doesn't mean women are afraid of ugly men.

I dearly hope I'm wrong about the man I mentioned in my previous post, but only time will tell. And if it transpires I wasn't wrong, and I hadn't said anything... Yeah, I can do without that guilt.

Yes, creepiness is nothing to do with looks.

At the opposite end of the scale the only man I've ever felt moved to ban from my workplace in 20 years was objectively not a threat in that he only had one leg, a real, physical disability that ordinarily would trigger the nurturer in me. But he absolutely made my skin crawl and as a lone worker he made me dread every working day. (Fortunately he was also Canadian and only here temporarily).

It isn't as if I'm a shrinking violet. I've been known to wade in between men having a fist fight in my workplace, picked random drunks off the pavement outside, chased junkies out of the toilets when they were using them as a shooting gallery. But this bloke set my spidey senses to max tingling.

I feel that my post would never have been deleted had it referred to a male person who did not identify as trans, but had otherwise the same history of campaigning to legalise the most extreme, repellent and violent types of pornography. Having a transgender identity should not make someone beyond reproach or comment.

It’s so annoying when women won’t shut up and do as they’re told, isn’t it?

The scariest person I've ever met was an American Psycho type - handsome, successful, silver spoon through and through. I refused to even take a taxi with him, and know of at least two occasions on which he attempted to rape women in his social circle, one of whom worked with him. I assume there were many more I never found out about. Anyway, MRA and TRA types love to spin that reaction in women as mean meanies being mean because we don't find someone aesthetically pleasing, but nope - that man was objectively pretty stunning, but locking eyes with him was like looking at a shark.

Trying to socialize women out of respecting, expressing, or acting on those impulses puts us in danger

Hence "gossip" being a) associated with women and b) characterised as negative and unacceptable behaviour.

There's one bloke I know (who doesn't identify as female) who gives me creepy as shit vibes. I find my heart's racing and I'm on high alert whenever I'm in his presence, meeting his eyes makes my stomach lurch, seeing him interact with children makes me feel panicky, and I won't let my daughter anywhere near him. Don't trust him, couldn't tell you why - but I sure as shit told the parent of a child I know he has regular, potentially unsupervised access to that something about that man screams "danger" to me.

It's survival behaviour evolved in response to us being preyed upon repeatedly. Who benefits from us not being permitted to engage in it?

There is a message in my inbox, but no content. I will wait a bit and see if something loads, and if not I will contact MNHQ.

I haven’t had a message yet. Will check again in a sec.

I will add that I would be afraid of anyone advocating the things Fae has a history of advocating for and find their attempts to steer both law and organizational practices deeply sinister regardless of how they identify.

Many people here have daughters, and I assume some on the mod team do too. You really don't find someone fighting to keep torture porn legal and lower the age at which people can participate in porn to 16 a bit sinister? Honestly, in your heart of hearts?

Even if you don't other women should be able to say that we do.

The trans people I have met (I'm not going to say I know them well, though one is the child of a friend who definitely is a friend in their own right) have never raised any fear reactions in me as part of their own being. I have been afraid of 'getting things wrong' in language terms.

I have had some mental discomfort, which I do class as pure transphobia, to be combatted and which i separate from my political views.

I have come across a woman and men who HAVE elicited that fear reaction. The woman was a past neighbour of mine, god she was terrifying.

In other words, if JF seems intimidating, it's not the female/gender divergent presentation that causes that per se IMO. Some people are frightening and that is a response to be respected. I certainly usually find males are more likely to elicit that reaction in me.

NOT FUCKING IMPRESSED.

MNHQ - what are you thinking? Apology in order, methinks.

I have updated the "Civility" thread with this atrocious decision.

Which is also why it's horrifying to see comments describing that visceral reaction being deleted.

Did you get a deletion message, Vix? Are we even being told why those comments are deemed unacceptable? Because I hate to bang on about it but this is actually kind of important. Trying to socialize women out of respecting, expressing, or acting on those impulses puts us in danger.

Basic pattern recognition is what it is, Fekko. Anything unusual for the context catches your eye because your brain doesn't immediately dismiss it as the same old boring non-threatening stuff you were expecting to see and it prompts you to take a closer look.

If we didn't have this skill we'd have gone extinct a very very long time ago.

I was actually horrified with myself that I had reacted in such a strong visceral way without even seeing her properly

Don't be, that visceral reaction exists for a reason. It is what keeps us safe. The idea that we should be socialised out of this is what is horrifying.

@ WorkingItOutAsIGo - yes. I think women are hotwired to notice things like that.

I was recently in a city who has a hospital/doctors that comes up in research and treatments for this area of medecine.

My spidey senses ‘pinged’ as some people walked by (a handful bit hundreds) when I looked (because you do) I noticed (mostly) m2f - the vast majority were older people, dressed conservatively, makeup/jewellery/nails like my mum really, poddling along window shopping, chatting with friends, getting groceries (so not like the teens/young adults I see around my office making a very large production about ‘I‘M WEARING A SEQUIN MINI DRESS LOOKIT ME!’). I didn’t feel in any way threatened or uneasy. These were people just going about their business but - you know how something just catches your eye? Maybe the way someone walks or holds themselves?

It must be some sense you have to notice the ‘different’.

Important question that may well deserve a thread of its own - is fear uncivil? Are women required for the sake of kindness/politeness/fostering "civil debate" to pretend that there is no trans activist anywhere who they find frightening?

If so, please explain how this can possibly be considered in any way feminist.

Knew I had seen something somewhere
Fascinating thread and I was on it
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374614-John-Ozimek-now-Jane-Fae-on-women-feminists-and-victims-of-pornographers?pg=12

And post questioning the deletions are being deleted too! Come on now, MNHQ, this is ridiculous. Mods can be wrong and their decisions should not be above criticism.

You have a number of different women here saying that they find Fae frightening. Are they all required to shut up in order to satisfy some sort of odd idea of politeness? Do you think they're wrong, or just "rude"?

On the creepy feelings...I was at a women’s event recently and suddenly the hairs on the back of my neck stood up and I started to feel really creeped out and in fact scared. I couldn’t work out why until I looked around and realised the woman standing behind me who I hadn’t really visually registered was clearly not AFAB. I was actually horrified with myself that I had reacted in such a strong visceral way without even seeing her properly. But I couldn’t help that fear. It came from nowhere.

I'm an atheist. My family have been atheists for generations. In my atheist experience religious people run the full political gamut from very left wing to very right wing. Just like everyone else.

It should of course be remembered that political parties have associations with religious groups and the Republican/Christian Right association in the US is an example of this, but so is the Labour Party's association with Catholicism here.