Famous men and surrogacy

It’s not about women being ‘poor enough’ to do it in the UK, you don’t get paid. It will be women who have signed up to an agency who want to do it

complete and demonstrable bollocks Taxtaxtax. Read this judgement and then tell me that the surrogate wasn't manipulated and that you're sure she wasn't doing it for money.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWFC/HCJ/2016/34.html

JenniferM1989

You’re pro-surrogacy. Can you read the post of mine of previous page and advise how you would address those common clinical scenarios that would lead to a clash of rights. Thanks.

Abortion is ending a pregnancy - it's not obvious that a foetus is a person, or even if it is that it's "right to life" outweighs the pregnant woman's right to bodily autonomy (Janice Radcliffe Richards wrote an excellent essay on this back in the 70s).

A baby that has been born, however, is unequivocally a person in its own right, and should not be subject to being bought and sold.

I suspect this attempt to muddy the waters by spurious analogies to abortion is not a helpful one.

Children - full human beings, not commodities to be bought and sold.

Welcome to Mumsnet Fox. Interesting first couple of posts.

Still waiting for anyone to address my questions and challenges. When I posted it on a previous thread they also went unanswered...

Truthontrial, please supply your sources where 'babies suffer permanent harm being removed from their mothers'.

Find a source that heavily suggests this. At bare minimum a clinical trial of children born to surrogates that have gone on to have permanent damage being brought up by people other than the surrogate?

I'll await your sources 👀

‘Legalised murder’ bloody hell. When did mumsnet get so weird.

These threads are so odd. You know nothing about their set up or the mother yet are judging away like she must be an enslaved child that’s had her womb stolen.

Do you feel the same about adopted babies? If the mother is willing to give the baby away, knows from the beginning that it will not be ‘her’ child (may not even be her egg) then why is it your business?

All this crap about being separated from mother, it happens all the time. Women get sick, they get PND, they can’t/don’t want to breastfeed. For whatever reason, it happens and two men can love a child just as much as a woman.

It’s not about women being ‘poor enough’ to do it in the UK, you don’t get paid. It will be women who have signed up to an agency who want to do it. Maybe because they enjoy being pregnant, maybe they want to give the joy of parenthood to someone else, maybe it’s one of their sisters who wants to help - who knows, either way it would’ve been her choice to sign up.

When will people learn that what a woman wants to do with her own body is nobody else’s business? People are so obsessed with controlling what other women can and can’t do. Give over. If you don’t want to be a surrogate, don’t be. Whilst altruistic surrogacy is illigal I cant see this as something worth getting worked up about.

Xpost with HavelockVetinari

I hope things work out for you

If it isn't, then it should be regulated to protect vulnerable adults from exploitation and understood to be another way of having a family (alongside egg and sperm donation, adoption, and fostering)

Buying and selling people is never OK

Quite aside from any other issues, this should be self evident for fucks sake

Even if someone is really, really rich, and really, really sad that they can’t have a person of their very own, it’s still not OK for them to buy one

@JenniferM1989 I'm infertile. I have struggled through 6 rounds of IVF, about to embark on a 7th. I have had 4 miscarriages, the latest of which was last week, and spent well over £30k on fertility treatment.

I STILL don't think surrogacy is morally acceptable. No one has a right to have children.

So fuck off with your "you don't understand what it's like" bollocks - I know EXACTLY what it's like, which is utterly, miserably shit.

What obvious thing are you missing about this fox??

Why is the difference between abortion and surrogacy as regards to "My body, My Choice"

Because a lot of the ethical issues around surrogacy come into play once a baby has actually been born. Once it's born, a baby has legal personhood and rights of its own. Note that the right to abort doesn't extend to the right to murder newborns.

This isn't a legal argument its a human right of a baby.

Do no harm (even if you doooo want it reeeallly badly)

End baby trade

Try to step away from your views that children only thrive with a mother around. There's a lot of situations where children are best kept away from their mothers

Nobody is saying a lot of what you are asserting.

You are trying to assert homophobia. Rubbishing research, making wild assumptions.

You can do all the derogatory and accusatory speak you like, it doesn't alter facts thats babies suffer permanent harm being removed from mothers.

The only case for removing a baby from its birth mother is, as you point out, serious harm or risk of.

Whilst we're on that subject its men that pose the greatest risk, by far and away. So again, you lose credibility.

I am not getting any reasonable stance from anything you say. Just some nastiness really.

Your agenda?

Utter pair of shits.

(My phone bowdlerises everything. I suspect it sneaks around putting frilly covers on the piano legs when I'm not looking.)

I think that "1000 cap" was only in the ridiculous fake contract case referenced up thread. The commissioning parents had it written into their fake (and illegal and unenforceable) contract which they downloaded from an American website and coerced a woman with learning disabilities into signing. The judge referenced it not as a suggestion that the cap was in any way lawful, but rather in order to highlight what an utter pair of shots the CPs were (the judge didn't of course say this in so many words but it's pretty clear from the judgement that this is what he thought).

Be my guest OhHolyJesus. If anyone can come up with a legal framework that addresses such scenarios I’ll be open to reconsidering my opinion. Ditto any posters who can address these questions.

I'm only up to page 12 but just wanted to say,

Pro surrogacy advocates always seem to be men or childless woman who don't understand or willfully ignore the primal bond between baby and mother (not saying all men and childless women don't believe this). Women who have had children and are pro surrogacy seem to perform mental gymnastics to try and justify surrogacy. I guess this is how they manage to give up their child. They seem to equate gestating a baby to a bird sitting on a egg. Man's role in conception is gammet supply and so to them they feel the egg donor is the mother, as this is the same as their role. Again denying the role of the mother.

At the risk of offending, it must take a strange type of woman who wants to give up a baby she has gestated through anything other than pressure or desperation. What happened to you that you are that desperate to please that you'll give away your fucking baby!

*totally different things