Famous men and surrogacy

This is going in circles so I'm not coming back to this thread. Just saying so people don't think I'm ignoring if anyone references any more of my posts.

Ultimately the purpose of life is to reproduce life. Reproduction is one of the strongest ‘needs’ there is.The need to create a baby is one of the strongest needs there is.

Sorry this is absolute nonsense.

We have a need to eat, to drink and to breathe. If we don't do any one of the above, we will die quite soon. We have absolutely no need whatsoever to reproduce. Millions of people do not do so through choice and lead very happy lives.

So you are quite frankly, talking total and complete rubbish.

A surrogate is helping their fellow human fulfil their reproductive need.
Oh give over. In many cases, the baby won't even be 'biologically' related to one or perhaps both of the 'parents'. How does this fulfill a need?

Some people may very badly want to reproduce. But that's all it is, a want. Not a need. We don't get all our 'wants' guaranteed in life and we don't hae a right to get others to satisfy those 'wants' for us.

@OhHolyJesus you say that you love your son who looks like you and you would still love him if he didn't look like you. Up thread you detail someone you know who has had 6 children taken off them. By your logic, why did you have a biological child when you are aware of other children who "could fill that hole/want of a child"?

I think you have double standards.

That's very interesting Fanny there is definitely wider interest.

For the record I experienced a 'need' for a child, it was basically a 'strong want' but like many things in life we don't always get our needs met. I don't think anyone has the right to a child, to be a parent.

Sometimes I think even those who want to become a parent using their own bodies and biology should go through some kind of application process. I'm being glib but many people are shit parents, some are sick abusive evil parents, and they shouldn't get to have kids if all they are going to do is abuse them or not take care of them.

In all scenarios where the 'needs' (in this case 'wants') of adults are at variance with the needs of children, the latter take absolute priority. Why should surrogacy be an exception?

This.

I considered using a surrogate once. I confess that I hadn't thought at all about the issues around it and was woefully ignorant of the wider implications for society. And I was quite desperate and probably not thinking very clearly. But I did feel that something about it just wasn't right in the end and didn't pursue it.

Since I have become more aware I'm so glad that I wasn't able to make a choice which I would now see as deeply morally wrong. Had commercial surrogacy been legal, who knows? I would hate to think how I would feel if I had exploited another woman and my own child in this way. I can't imagine how I would live with that.

Nobody 'needs' a baby. Absolutely nobody.

Ultimately the purpose of life is to reproduce life. Reproduction is one of the strongest ‘needs’ there is.The need to create a baby is one of the strongest needs there is.

And no I’m not saying being childless is necessarily calamitous nor does it mean a person isn’t valuable.

A surrogate is helping their fellow human fulfil their reproductive need. It’s not ideal, but it doesn’t have to lead to a ‘damaged baby’. A loved and wanted child is a loved and wanted child.

Absolutely, anyone advocating for this doesn't give a crap about potential harm to babies and women.

Greed.

A response to the consultation from NIA, an organisation I hadn't previously heard of. I think they give an excellent critique that covers most of my objections to the consultation and many I hadn't thought of. It may help crystallise thoughts about some of the issues discussed on the thread.

www.niaendingviolence.org.uk/perch/resources/surrogacy-consultation-response-october-2019.pdf

That judgement linked to by Ohholyjesus, shows perfectly why the law needs to protect women. The men in this case have behaved atrociously

Sicko!

What is up with some.people.

Those poor poor baniesyand their mothers.

...but hey, yer know, happy greedy selfish CPs
Where there's money to be made you can be sure some low life's will fight for a right to do that.

It is incredible to me that legalizing human trafficking is being considered by lawmakers.
In the news today:
A man who owns an "adoption agency" in the US was just arrested for trafficking 40 pregnant women into the US from the Marshall Islands and selling the babies for $40,000 each.

What will lead to the most suffering: a woman, like many who isnt able to have children.

or a baby thats deliberately damaged and traded as a commodity, cos you know, babies damaging experience/life should be a lower priority than someone's wants.

There you are, thats better reflects reality.

What a lot of disregard for human life.

No one has a right to a child.

So many sadly don't care about the well-being of babies.

Its horrific. So long as people get what they want huh.

Simplistic and not complex atall.

What will lead to the most suffering: a woman left childless for life, or a baby that doesn’t have the absolute optimal experience but still has a ‘good enough’ experience?

In all scenarios where the 'needs' (in this case 'wants') of adults are at variance with the needs of children, the latter take absolute priority. Why should surrogacy be an exception?

The subtext here is: how do you weigh up the needs of a childless person with the needs of a baby?

Nobody 'needs' a baby. Absolutely nobody.

I think we need to get away from this notion that being involuntarily childless is some terrible calamity that can and should be fixed at almost any cost.

The subtext here is: how do you weigh up the needs of a childless person with the needs of a baby?

What will lead to the most suffering: a woman left childless for life, or a baby that doesn’t have the absolute optimal experience but still has a ‘good enough’ experience?

This biological need for a baby doesn't ride with me. Not everyone wants kids, it's a social or emotional thing not a biological thing, clearly it isn't as some people can't as they are infertile and some people can't as they are on same sex couples.

This thing about wanting a child biologically related to you is also BS. If you want to be a parent you have a hole in your life, you have a need to love and care for a child. That is a social need or emotional need, not biological.

If you feel those things it shouldn't matter whether that child looks like you or not. I love that my son looks a lot like me, would I love him less if he didn't? Of course not. Having a child in your life in any form is (mostly) a blessing. Is it a right? Absolutely not.

As I continue with this thread I am reminded of the hoops adoptive parents jump through, they want to be parents so badly, the assessments, the paperwork, the adjustment and the lifetime of parenting a child who came from somewhere else.

With adoption you are not buying a child which was made in your image for your own selfish needs, you are selflessly loving a child who has been failed elsewhere.

OK. So what's the very worst case scenario if we outlaw surrogacy entirely? A small number of couples or individuals will not get to have 'their own' baby. That's sad for them, obviously, but nobody is guaranteed to get everything they want from life, certainly not at the expense of others.

By contrast, permitting surrogacy - certainly commerical surrogacy - opens the door to all sorts of deeply troubling scenarios for the surrogate and, more importantly, the baby. Not to mention the broader effects on society of the commofification of human life. So on balance, it seems obvious to me that surrogacy in all its forms should be outlawed. A no-brainer, as the Americans like to say.

and as for the choosy choice argument (how fucking neo liberal can you get by the way?)

Quite! It's utterly staggering to see the political illiteracy of commenters arriving here and saying the place looks like a Daily Mail comment section - completely failing to understand that creating a market place for babies is as right wing, neoliberal and Thatcherite as it gets.

There is nothing progressive about surrogacy.

People biologically have a want for a biological child

We all have all sorts of 'wants'. That doesn't mean those 'wants' should be fulfilled at any cost.

For these gay father in the OP, they have a biological child.

Well, one of them does I guess. But so what? Do the selfish desires of rich men override all other concerns?

People biologically have a want for a biological child

That cuts both ways. People biologically have a want to know their biological parents. At the least, I hope all these surrogacies ensure that the children can know the mother who donated the egg and the mother who gestated them. Otherwise respect for that biological need goes only one way.

We have a similar scenario in our family re my white uncle lived in Africa with his black African wife. They adopted his wife's sisters child due to some circumstances which meant the sister couldn't cope with the child. They moved to the uk, but after a few years separated. Black child stayed in uk with our white family, lots of people pre judge how/why she is part of our family.

I have great admiration for people who choose to adopt because it is a very difficult process. And not just about having a child, it's a lifetime of social services and risknof the biological family trying to get back involved. It's not a 'plug a baby gap hole' solution for infertile people. People biologically have a want for a biological child, that's why people generally have children without even giving a thought to adopting instead of TTC. In certain circumstances, with the help of a willing surrogate, these child can have families who want and love them. For these gay father in the OP, they have a biological child.

Name changed for this. I think it's really unfair to criticise mark and his partner for using a surrogate to have a much wanted baby.

Would you be as critical of a woman getting pregnant purposely by a man she didn't want a relationship with? That happens too.

The poster who said they created an orphan. Total bullshit. Mark is her biological father. She is his daughter. That little will be loved, so loved, she is so wanted.

They did not force her mother to be their surrogate. Leave them alone and let them enjoy their beautiful little girl. It's none of any of your business. They were sharing their joy at the birth of their little girl. How miserable are you lot slagging them off for it.

*I do not know either of them personally that's just what I think.

Sorry mypuddin I completely misunderstood your post.

I know a fertile couple who adopted. They worked in the charity sector in Africa and adopted from the country they lived in. They saw how they could help and they did. They have different skin so they get the question around their reason for adoption, everyone assumes they are infertile.